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Strange PID, SSR and Element Issue

 
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njayneer1999




Joined: 22 Feb 2022
Posts: 13
Location: Minneapolis, MN


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:33 pm    Post subject: Strange PID, SSR and Element Issue Reply with quote


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Hello. Just troubleshooting my new build...I have a strange issue with my HLT. Must be some sort of wiring issue, but not sure. Has anyone had these symptoms before? Let me know if you have experienced and how one might fix. The very strange items are #6 and #7, as Kal doesn't mention that in his troubleshooting guide. There must be a wiring issue, but have traced it and must have missed something. Any help would be appreciated.


1. Turn on Key, set temp to 152 on HLT PID
2. Turn on element switch to HLT
3. Element turns on. Element light, PID out and SSR lights all on
4. Hits target temperature. PID out and SSR both off. HLT Element light. Current still shows 22amps.
5. Element stays on and continues heating water. SSR and PID lights match (solid, or flashing or off)
6. When I turn element switch off, element shuts off and element light shuts off.
7. When I turn switch back ON moments later, the element light, PID light and SSR light all match and are OFF, now that the temp is well beyond the setpoint. Verified that current is not flowing to element by virtually zero in current display.

Thank you.

Jay
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jay!

I looked up your email associated with your account here to better understand what control panel you're using (we have many models) and if it was one we built, one you built from one of our kits, or one you built from parts you sourced yourself. All this gives us the context we need to help with troubleshooting, and avoiding going down rabbit holes by making assumptions that are not true.

So turns out we had been talking about this earlier this year through email. This is a kit you assembled based on a set of parts someone purchased somewhere else (it's not one of our kits). The seller mentioned it was for our Standard 30A Electric Brewery Control Panel design. From the pictures you sent me some of the parts were different (timer, contactors, enclosure, receptacles, possibly others). This is important as it means that there could also be incorrect parts used (not just incorrect wiring) or parts that can be used but wiring may be different. The PID programming/setup may be different as well if different PIDs were used. Important to keep all that in mind. If I remember correctly the timer was completely different so the wiring/setup of that would definitely not be the same.

On to your issues:

Quote:
1. Turn on Key, set temp to 152 on HLT PID
2. Turn on element switch to HLT
3. Element turns on. Element light, PID out and SSR lights all on

All normal so far. Good!

Quote:
4. Hits target temperature. PID out and SSR both off. HLT Element light. Current still shows 22amps.

I think you're missing a word here. Do you mean the HLT Element light is still on? I'll assume it is. That means the element is on. Your element is firing when it should not. Likely incorrect wiring, or an incorrect part, or the PID is set up incorrectly, or the PID is incorrectly being used. This will help troubleshoot:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/control-panel-troubleshooting#My_heating_element_isnt_firing_or_firing_continuously

Keep in mind that anything PID related here will be for the PIDs we use in our design. If it's a different model PID then some of the steps will likely be different.

Quote:
5. Element stays on and continues heating water. SSR and PID lights match (solid, or flashing or off)

In (4) you mentioned the SSR and PID lights were off but now you're saying they're sometimes on? Which is true? They can't both be correct.

Quote:
6. When I turn element switch off, element shuts off and element light shuts off.

Normal. That's good.

Quote:
7. When I turn switch back ON moments later, the element light, PID light and SSR light all match and are OFF, now that the temp is well beyond the setpoint. Verified that current is not flowing to element by virtually zero in current display.

So that sounds normal too. The PID should not be telling the SSR / heating element to fire if there's an overtemp condition. (Why that happened in the first place is the question here).

Cheers!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at emails I sent you keep this comment I made in mind too:

kal wrote:
Thanks for the videos. In addition to the comments I made previously, they show FOTEK SSRs and a timer that’s 1/10th the cost of what we include in our control panel kits. We’ve never sold either of those. There are known fake FOTEKs out there that burn up/catch fire. Unfortunately people like them because they’re sold dirt cheap (at least the fake ones). Example: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31058

Could be that your FOTEK SSRs are fake/not working right, possibly firing intermittently and/or not when you want them to.

Have you confirmed if they're fake? Google "how to tell a fake FOTEK SSR".

One example: https://protosupplies.com/inferior-counterfeit-fotek-ssr-25-solid-state-relays-on-the-market/

If you need replacements I recommend the ones we sell: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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njayneer1999




Joined: 22 Feb 2022
Posts: 13
Location: Minneapolis, MN


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct. This is the set that I was told was yours, but unfortunately for me, was not. Sad I would never have purchased this if I had known. Though I am purchasing replacement parts from you.

But...

#1-3 are normal.
#4 - yes, I mean HLT light ON - so it is incorrectly firing...It remain at 100% after the setpoint is reached. In this statement I meant that the SSR and PID lights match each other in all scenarios. So, if PID light is off, SSR is off. Or vice versa. Or flashing. They match always.
#5 - the Element is ON and Element light is ON. But, PID and SSR lights are OFF.
#6 - yes, normal.
#7 - yes,normal.

So, the confusing part is why is #7 normal, after toggling the element switch. It is like something reset. Though it was too hot and I don't know what happens after temp falls below setpoint...if it works normally, that is is strange.

I am continuing to play around with it to see other symptoms.

If it were miswired from a 240VAC perspective, seems like #7 wouldn't show itself.

Thank you for your help.
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njayneer1999




Joined: 22 Feb 2022
Posts: 13
Location: Minneapolis, MN


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I looked at the "how to tell a fake" and I can't tell for sure. I have a higher power SSR (40A). As it was a different model, the only clues were the thickness of the lines - and they all looked thin like the authentic ones. But I will do some searching for the pictures of authentic 40A versions.

As I continue my troubleshooting, I tried again. Set temp for 140F. Water was at 125F. PID, Element, SSR lights all ON. Water heating up. As it approached 140F, I could see that the PID was starting to flash, but the element light was not flashing - was solid and current not fluctuating. So, when it hit 141F, I turned the "Element Select" switch to OFF and then turned it back to HLT. As I mentioned earlier, seems like something reset (contactor?) and now it is clear that it is working correctly to maintain 140F. The Element LED remained off...but then started flashing as the PID controller attempted to hold the 140F.

So, AFTER a reset of the element select toggle switch, it worked as normal. Could this be an indication of a faulty contactor?
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njayneer1999 wrote:
As I continue my troubleshooting, I tried again. Set temp for 140F. Water was at 125F. PID, Element, SSR lights all ON. Water heating up. As it approached 140F, I could see that the PID was starting to flash, but the element light was not flashing - was solid and current not fluctuating.

This is very telling. The PID is turning the output off and on as it's getting close like it's supposed to but since the ELEMENT ON light is always on (not blinking on/off) this to me sounds like the SSR is always firing or "stuck" on or you have things wired incorrectly such that the element is always on whenever the ELEMENT SELECT switch is in one of the ON positions.

Quote:
So, AFTER a reset of the element select toggle switch, it worked as normal. Could this be an indication of a faulty contactor?

My guess is on the SSR, it's doing something funky and not letting go (turning off). If you wired incorrectly such that the element was always on when the ELEMENT SELECT switch is in an on position, it wouldn't clear itself and start working correctly to maintain at a specific temp.

EDIT: The contactor being closed also doesn't mean there's current being passed. The SSR controls that. But the odd thing is that turning the ELEMENT SELECT switch does nothing to make the SSR reset itself. It's only for controlling the contactor. You may have multiple issues here (miswired and a bad part).

Kal

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njayneer1999




Joined: 22 Feb 2022
Posts: 13
Location: Minneapolis, MN


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems the only way the SSR would be the culprit is if the LED on the SSR was also faulty. Like I said, the LED on the SSR matches the flashing LED on the PID. Have you heard of the SSR LED being OFF when it is actually ON? Meaning, after PID hits the setpoint, the PID LED AND the SRR LED turn off (as they should) but the SSR is still stuck in the ON position completing the circuit to the element? And both Boil and HLT behave the same way.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njayneer1999 wrote:
It seems the only way the SSR would be the culprit is if the LED on the SSR was also faulty. Like I said, the LED on the SSR matches the flashing LED on the PID. Have you heard of the SSR LED being OFF when it is actually ON? Meaning, after PID hits the setpoint, the PID LED AND the SRR LED turn off (as they should) but the SSR is still stuck in the ON position completing the circuit to the element?

I've never used FOTEK SSRs so I don't know how they're designed internally. If it's broken/damaged (or fake) it's possible that the LED doesn't work correctly (LED off while the SSR is actually on). I would check with the manufacturer.

njayneer1999 wrote:
And both Boil and HLT behave the same way.

I imagine both SSRs you have are FOTEK so similar behaviour would be expected.

If you want to be sure, try a known working SSR: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/ssrs-relays-contactors/products/40-amp-ssr-12v-dc-input-240v-ac-output

$20 test and you'll know.

What PID brand/model are you using?

Kal

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njayneer1999




Joined: 22 Feb 2022
Posts: 13
Location: Minneapolis, MN


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using the Auber SYL-2352. I believe these are the same as yours. True, $20 not an expensive test...
But, the element select switch doesn't even do anything at the SSR. It is connected to the contactors.
So, toggling that switch seems like a strange way to "reset" the SSR when there isn't a direct connection...as the SSR LED and the PID LED always match state, even if the element select switch is "OFF".

Also, the wiring in my panel matches yours exactly, except for the Auber timer i have vs the Eagle.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njayneer1999 wrote:
I am using the Auber SYL-2352. I believe these are the same as yours.

Yes, same PIDs. Make sure you've set them up per the settings in our build instructions.

njayneer1999 wrote:
True, $20 not an expensive test...
But, the element select switch doesn't even do anything at the SSR. It is connected to the contactors.
So, toggling that switch seems like a strange way to "reset" the SSR when there isn't a direct connection...as the SSR LED and the PID LED always match state, even if the element select switch is "OFF".

Agreed. I don't know what's different, but something has to be different (or not working correctly) as you're having non-standard results.

Where that problem is is unfortunately not obvious from the information we have at hand.

The good news is that you have 3 PIDs, 2 SSRs, 2 contactors, and many other things that are duplicated, so you can test. For example, the odds of all 3 PIDs not working correctly (defective) is pretty much zero. So if you swapped out the 3 PIDs one by one and the problem persists, you know it's not because the PID is defective. It could be incorrect PID setup, some other part that is defective (SSR? Contactor?), incorrect wiring, or incorrect usage (pressing the wrong buttons/in the wrong mode and not realizing it/etc).

I already mentioned it above, but make sure to read very carefully the steps here:
https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/control-panel-troubleshooting#My_heating_element_isnt_firing_or_firing_continuously

Often people skim things and don't realize certain things. For example, people don't always realize that the PID can be in MANUAL mode but displaying AUTO, and are wondering why they're overshooting temperature. If the PID are set up correctly this can only happen on the boil PID as the HLT PID will be locked in AUTO (MANUAL mode not possible).

A previous issue you had with the meters you mentioned was due to an incorrect wire crimping/splicing you did (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=333478#333478). Something to consider too. You may have an intermittent connection or possibly a short somewhere so you way want to recheck your wiring and make sure you didn’t do something similar here with signal wires.

Given that flipping the ELEMENT SELECT switch seems to do something or reset something, I'd focus around there. There could be a wiring issue you're missing.

Cheers!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jay,

Did you manage to figure out the issue? Just curious.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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