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Is Kal's Design Too Efficient?

 
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:58 pm    Post subject: Is Kal's Design Too Efficient? Reply with quote


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Is Kal’s design too efficient? I ask as I seem to always get a lower FG than expected resulting in a higher ABV than planned. OG matches the recipe. I understand wort fermentability and yeast used factor into attenuation and determine the FG.

Or, perhaps, my brewing software used to plan recipes, the latest version of BeerSmith, is wrong in its estimates and I need to somehow adjust/account for the lower FG in recipe planning?

BTW, I always do a 90 mash (temp depends on what I'm brewing) and a 10 minute mash out at 168F.

I've brewed some amazing beers with my EB (others have said so and actually requested/asked for them). Just wish I could hit the planned FG.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Kal's Design Too Efficient? Reply with quote

KB wrote:
Is Kal’s design too efficient? I ask as I seem to always get a lower FG than expected resulting in a higher ABV than planned. OG matches the recipe. I understand wort fermentability and yeast used factor into attenuation and determine the FG.

The system does not determine the FG, the brewer does. The brewer does this by choosing the grist (fermentables vs unfermentables - every grain is different), the mash schedule/temp, the yeast, the pitch rate, amount of oxygen, and (to lesser degree) the fermentation temperature/vessel. Probably lots of others too I'm not remembering at the moment. All that said, there a ton of variables and it's rare that any brewer (even a pro brewer) will hit the FG they want on the first go. It's an iterative process. You brew, you adjust, you brew again. The more experienced the brewer, the closer they can hit the target the first time. Some of my more adventurous beers (like when I was first brewing NEIPAs) required 3-4 iterations with me increasing the mash temp each time and increasing the amount of unfermentables. Took this many tries as for both I had to go beyond what I had ever done before so I approached it cautiously. I wanted an elevated FG, but didn't want to create something cloyingly sweet.

KB wrote:
Or, perhaps, my brewing software used to plan recipes, the latest version of BeerSmith, is wrong in its estimates and I need to somehow adjust/account for the lower FG in recipe planning?

Brewing software is notoriously bad at estimating FG as that's an incredibly complex (i.e. basically impossible) thing to calculate.
  • When you change your mash schedule/temp in your software does the estimated FG change? probably not.
  • When you change some of the grains you list in your recipe from one type of grain to another that isn't as fermentable does the estimated FG change? Probably not.
  • When you change the yeast in your recipe from one to another that is more or less attenuative does the estimated FG change? probably not.
  • When you change the amount of dissolved oxygen in the wort in your software does the estimated FG change? probably not.
Most software doesn't even allow you to adjust much of the things listed above. I pretty much ignore the FG my software gives me as I know it's meaningless. I use experience instead when planning a recipe for the first time knowing how different factors and choices will affect the FG. This comes with time.

Give the same recipe to 10 brewers and you'll probably get close to 10 different FGs (never mind different beers).

Part of the role of the brewer is to adjust recipes and their process to get them the outcomes they want using the inputs they provide. If you don't get the output you want, adjust.

Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if the mash is too efficient and makes a wort with ample sugars then then FG is lower than expected. I'm not writing about dry (mash temps around 149F) vs malty (mash temps around 154F), I'm writing about efficient mashing for the yeast to convert more than expected.

Believe me, I'm not complaining... just trying to understand.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KB wrote:
But if the mash is too efficient and makes a wort with ample sugars then then FG is lower than expected.

No. That's actually backwards.

If your mash efficiency is higher than the estimate you entered into your software, more sugars will be extracted than you expect and your OG (starting gravity) will be higher than what you told your software to predict. That's only OG however.

All else being equal the % of sugars that ferment out (called attenuation) remains the same regardless of OG. So as OG goes up, the expected FG (final gravity) will also go up as attenuation remains the same. (There are some limitations around this but I'm simplifying to keep the concept simple). I.e. consume 75% of 100 takes you to 25, but consume 75% of 50 takes you farther down to 12.5.

This is why when people increase their OG by adding more grain, you will often want to reduce your mash temp to increase your attenuation as well (there are many other factors too as mentioned in my previous post). Otherwise you may make something that ends up with too high of an FG and the beer is too sweet. Every beer is different however. Depends what you're after.

Quote:
I'm not writing about dry (mash temps around 149F) vs malty (mash temps around 154F), I'm writing about efficient mashing for the yeast to convert more than expected.

I'm not sure what difference you're referring to. Mash efficiency always refers to how well starches are converted to sugars (i.e. how much sugar you get out of the grain for a given volume). The higher the mash efficiency, the less grain you need to reach the same OG (original gravity).

How well that resulting sugar ferments out is a whole other factor and is partially controlled by mash temp. Lower temps produce a more fermentable wort (lower FG).

What brewing books do you own?

I suggest:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/how-to-brew-everything-you-need-to-know-to-brew-beer-right-the-first-time
https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/brewing-better-beer-master-lessons-for-advanced-homebrewers

Both have excellent chapters on mashing and how it works.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own shelves of brewing books. I know how to mash/ the science of mashing/ the art of mashing/ etc.

As I wrote in my initial post my OG matches the recipe.

Thanks for your input.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Kal's Design Too Efficient? Reply with quote

KB wrote:
Just wish I could hit the planned FG.

Why don't you post one of your recipes and what numbers you got out of it? If you adjusted something for a subsequent brew just list what you changed to try and get the FG higher and post the new numbers. Please include as much detail as possible and I'll take a look / make suggestions on how you can get a beer to where you want.

Cheers!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Thanks. I will do.

Between our posts I was playing with BS to see if changing things mentioned in your prior post would change the FG. Yes, the FG did change.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KB wrote:
Between our posts I was playing with BS to see if changing things mentioned in your prior post would change the FG. Yes, the FG did change.

Really? All the things I mentioned? I didn't think any recipe software would change FG based on yeast selection. I didn't think any software lets you enter the dissolved oxygen level let alone yeast pitch rate, etc.

I've never used the software (or haven't in years) but what happens to your FG if you put in everything exactly the way you do it?

You'd also need the maltster spec sheets for all the malts you use (from the correct lot numbers) to enter all the grain info too. That's not something that is typically available to us.

Kal

_________________
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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I realize we don't have the malster spec sheets as homebrewers. I'm going by what BS is using for the fermentables. Some of the fermentable specs came from the supplier (MoreBeer, AIH, etc). I realize these numbers are probably not 100% accurate.

I played around with the mash schedule, equipment profile settings, fermentables and yeast. I have no way to determine/know the dissolved oxygen so I skipped this item.
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