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60A Service Question

 
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HTGBrew




Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:38 pm    Post subject: 60A Service Question Reply with quote


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I'm working to set up a control panel for a 4bbl boil kettle. There are 4 5500w elements installed in the kettle currently. My initial thought process was to control 2 elements simultaneously via a 50A panel. Then control the 2 remaining elements independently via individual 30A circuits using a 30A switch to turn each element on off manually. This would allow for all 4 elements to be fired simultaneously while heating to a boil, then switching the 2 manual elements off and allowing the 2 elements feed by the control panel to maintain the boil.

In speaking with the electrician, they indicated we would need to have a 60A circuit run to the panel to allow for some amperage overhead. Apparently 50A would be too close to the maximum allowable sustained amperage for this application. This is where my concern lies. From what I understand, there are not standard plug/outlet options for 60A circuits, correct? I really am not considering direct wiring into the control panel, given that I want to keep the panel separate from the permanent wiring infrastructure, and not to mention avoid additional inspection challenges that this could present.

Given this, what are most individuals doing with panels that require a 60A service? Would it be best to have 2 separate 30A circuits run to 30A outlets that the panel would then plug into? Then the 2 additional 30A circuits for the manual elements?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum!

Our 50 amp panels that drive up to 2 x 5500W elements at once do not require a 60 amp server.

2 x 5500W draws 45.8 amps max (usually less as the voltage sags). Two pumps running draws a bit more (2 amps or so). The other parts draw negligible current.

We've sold hundreds of our 50 amp panels to folks that have them running them off a 50A circuit, many of them in commercial settings that have been inspected. I have not heard of electricians stating that 60A is required. No harm in extra headroom of course, but it's never been a requirement.

You are correct that there are no NEMA plugs/receptacle standards above 50 amps.

Kal

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HTGBrew




Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. I will confirm with the electrician. But it sounds like if we did have to go the 60A route, we'd be limited to directly wiring the feed into the panel given that no standard elements/plugs exist. Or run 2 30 A circuits. Obviously I would like to avoid both scenarios if at all possible.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can have a 60A breaker in the electrical panel, 60A wiring to the wall outlet, but then a regular 50A NEMA wall receptacle for our 50A control panel power cord to plug in to.

You can always oversize in-wall wiring as long as the breaker matches. The breaker is there to protect the wiring.

By having a smaller (50A) wall receptacle you know you'll never draw from than 50 amps from that circuit breaker/in-wall wiring as you cannot plug in any device larger than 50 amps.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HTGBrew




Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. Makes sense. I wasn't sure if installing the 50A receptacle on a 60A circuit (wiring/breaker) was suitable to code. Sounds like it is, which makes things a lot easier.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck! If you're looking for control panels for this or just parts, check out our shop: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections
We support our products and customers for life.

Cheers!

Kal

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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

be careful, a single receptacle on a 60 amp circuit needs to be rated 60 amps per the nec. even multiple receptacles on a 60 amp circuit would each need to be rated 60 amps. same applies for a 50 amp circuit, would need a 50 amp receptacle, whether a single receptacle on that circuit or multiples.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The breaker and the wire in the walls have to be rated the same. In other words if using a 60A breaker the wire in the walls has to be rated for 60A too. The breaker is used to protect the wire. Breakers are not used to protect devices plugged into receptacles or the receptacles.

The receptacle doesn't have to be rated 60A (there really aren't any anyway). You can most ues a 14-50 (240V/50A) receptacle on a 60a breaker and in-wall wiring. In most cases you can always use a lower amperage receptacle because by their very nature you can't plug something higher amperage into the receptacle. For example, you can have a 20A breaker protecting 20A wiring but use 15A receptacle.

You can't use multiple receptacles on higher current (30A, 50A, etc) circuits however. Things like dryers (30A) and stoves (40A and 50A) have to be home runs (single receptacle, single wire, single breaker). This is because the device used is sized close to the max ampacity of the circuit so having multiples would have far too many nuisance trips. Same reason why even some lower current devices in the kitchen may require their own dedicated circuit. Multiples are usually only allowed with other lower 15-20A circuits because often the things we plug in only draw an amp or two or even a tiny fraction of an amp (lamps, phone charges, etc).

Kal

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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe canada's electrical code is different but here in the states, nec would require a 60 amp receptacle on a 60 amp circuit. 210.21(B)(1):

(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A
single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall
have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.

code doesn't explicitly prohibit multiple receptacles on a single circuit, even for larger 30+ amp circuits. it relies on the user to not overload a circuit by plugging too much stuff in at once. sometimes there is a 'backdoor' requirement for a single receptacle in that a manufacturer may state in their installation instructions that their equipment must be on a dedicated circuit.

multiple receptacles on a single circuit follow a different set of rules, 210.21(B)(3) but even that does not allow smaller receptacles on larger circuits (underlining mine):


Receptacle Ratings.
Where connected to a branch circuit
supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings
shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3), or, where
rated higher than 50 amperes, the receptacle rating shall not be
less than the branch-circuit rating
.

20 amp and 40 amp circuits are the only circuit ratings that allow smaller receptacles on it for multi-receptacle circuits. ironically, the 40 amp circuit allows 50 amp receptacles but it is up to the end user to not plug in items that exceed the circuit rating.

just guessing at the logic here but if a single receptacle, idea is what will get plugged in is known, no reason for the circuit and receptacle ampacity rating not to match. idea with smaller receptacles on multi-receptacle circuits is that the individual loads are small such that i don't need a beefier receptacle but the total load across all the receptacles may exceed the value of any one receptacle. getting into higher amperages, less likely that you will have multiple large loads plugged in at once. seems like the general rules about not going lower have to do with burning up the receptacle. for example, a slow cooker plugged into a 15 amp receptacle on a 60 amp circuit could experience a failure and overload the circuit such that it is pulling 40 amps in an overload condition. receptacle could overheat/catch fire and the breaker would never trip.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

itsnotrequired wrote:
maybe canada's electrical code is different but here in the states, nec would require a 60 amp receptacle on a 60 amp circuit.

I don't think it's different. I also don't usually refer to Canada's code (in this case Ontario) as most people reading are from the USA. Every seller of 50A panels that I know of states you can use a NEMA 14-50 (50 amp) receptacle on a 60 amp circuit. These are mostly US based sellers.

There is also no NEMA standard for 60A receptacles so not sure what would be installed.

Kal

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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not saying a 50 amp receptacle on a 60 amp circuit is some inherent risk or danger but code is pretty clear here. do you have a link to any of these panel manufacturers that say you can run a 50 amp receptacle on a 60 amp circuit?

nema 14-60 is a standard 60 amp configuration.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.freshdesk.com/data/helpdesk/attachments/production/35004118986/original/Panel_Cut_sheet.pdf?response-content-type=application%2Fpdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAS6FNSMY2WD6T3JNC%2F20201002%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20201002T225219Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=44324b733a5ea6da02711c035c21920978c307ac114a641011688fea721b3063

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, surprised by that. i notice the document is from 2017, maybe they have wised up? i poked around a bit and can't really find any other info on brew panel circuit ratings although a certain website says their 50 amp panels must be protected with a 50 amp breaker. Mug
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always recommend a 50A breaker, along with in-wall wiring to conform to that spec, and a 50A receptacle. In fact, it's what everyone's always recommended for more than 10 years now. We were certainly the first but everyone else says and does the same. Cheers!

Kal

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