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Amp and Volt Meter

 
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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:05 pm    Post subject: Amp and Volt Meter Reply with quote


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So I'm taking the plunge today. I plugged in my control panel and hope to have my brewery operational this weekend.

So far pretty good but I've hit my first issue. The Amp and Volt meters aren't lighting yep (everything else appears to be working).

A few details.
I have a DIY 30A kit from Kal.
I did turn the adjust the DC power all the way down per directions as I didn't realize Kal's are pre-set (oops!)
The meters were unplugged when I plugged the panel in. I adjusted the DC to 5 before plugging in the meters
The meters have never lit up at all

Upon additional testing I found that the plugs going into the meters read 5 when unplugged so I assume that's wired correctly
However when the meters are plugged in I see the DC drops to about 1.5.

Any ideas or additional questions? I may have already fried them without knowing but thought I'd ask.

Thanks
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

Take a look at our troubleshooting tips here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25460
Specifically the "Volt and amp meters" section. It'll walk you through everything, step by step.

Good luck!

Kal

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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. Always fast with the help. I have the post printed out already but did read it another time. Didn't resolve anything for me. Will be a bummer if I just fried them but given that they never flashed on at all and I actually had them unplugged at the start before confirm ~5 DC. And even then I plugged one in at a time.

Does that fact that the reading drop from 5 to about 1.5 when the meter is plugged in mean anything?
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the voltage out of the power supplies drops greatly when it’s hooked up to a load (a meter) the power supply is either defective or it’s trying to keep up with what the load wants (and not able to) which could mean the load is defective. Miswiring issues can result in both the power supply and load being damaged. If you have any other 5v dc power supply you can test the meters to see. Good luck!

Kal

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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should add too: Make sure to use the nylon standoffs/screws/nuts we include to mount the power supplies and not a metal screw as otherwise you may short the metal screw against the backplate. That could also cause issues (though usually it just destroys the power supply).

Kal

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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Amp and Volt Meter Reply with quote

DFB wrote:
So I'm taking the plunge today. I plugged in my control panel and hope to have my brewery operational this weekend.

So far pretty good but I've hit my first issue. The Amp and Volt meters aren't lighting yep (everything else appears to be working).

A few details.
I have a DIY 30A kit from Kal.
I did turn the adjust the DC power all the way down per directions as I didn't realize Kal's are pre-set (oops!)
The meters were unplugged when I plugged the panel in. I adjusted the DC to 5 before plugging in the meters
The meters have never lit up at all

Upon additional testing I found that the plugs going into the meters read 5 when unplugged so I assume that's wired correctly
However when the meters are plugged in I see the DC drops to about 1.5.

Any ideas or additional questions? I may have already fried them without knowing but thought I'd ask.

Thanks


Picking this back up finally...

So I ordered the replacement parts I thought I needed but I'm not getting very far. I went to test the doorbell transformer to ensure a reading between 8-30AC and I no longer get a reading. I assume I'm doing something incredible dumb

it's plugged in
I have the key turned on
The power light turns blue
my volt meter is turned to AC (I tested in a basement outlet and it reads 120)

The specific reading I get from the transformer is about 0.012 which about what I get without touching the doorbell transformer.


Thanks everyone for the help.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DFB,

Did you follow the "Volt and amp meters" section in our troubleshooting tips that will walk you through step by step? It's here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25460

Please go through the steps in that section and let us know the first place where you do not see the results that are expected in the steps and report back. For example, the first 2 steps are:

(a) Install the transformers, AC/DC power supplies and meters and only connect the transformer input side wires. Leave all other wires disconnected for now.
(b) With the control panel on, measure the output voltage on the transformers. They should measure approximately 12V AC, but anything from 8-30V AC is fine, and some transformers have more than connection point (called 'taps') allowing you to choose the output voltage.


If you do not have between 8-30VAC let us know. Sounds like you're only getting 0.012 Volts AC on the output side? Is that the case? That's pretty much zero so maybe you have no voltage being fed into the input side of the transformers. What is the voltage on the input side? As well, did you disconnect the output side of the transformers completely before measuring? (Make sure to follow the instructions exactly).

I'm not sure what you mean by the part in bold: "The specific reading I get from the transformer is about 0.012 which about what I get without touching the doorbell transformer."

What do you mean by touching? Why are you touching it? Where are you touching it? When does it change? Or does it change?

Good luck!

Kal

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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Hi DFB,
Please go through the steps in that section and let us know the first place where you do not see the results that are expected in the steps and report back. For example, the first 2 steps are:

(a) Install the transformers, AC/DC power supplies and meters and only connect the transformer input side wires. Leave all other wires disconnected for now.
(b) With the control panel on, measure the output voltage on the transformers. They should measure approximately 12V AC, but anything from 8-30V AC is fine, and some transformers have more than connection point (called 'taps') allowing you to choose the output voltage.


If you do not have between 8-30VAC let us know.
Kal


Following this specifically above. The reading is 0.000 on the output side. How do I measure the input side? Do I just test the hot and neutral buses?

Thanks
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes - test where the 2 transformer input wires are connected to the HOT and NEUTRAL buses. You should see 120V AC. Odds are you're seeing 0V AC which means there's a wiring problem somewhere not feeding 120V to the buses (and then transformer). Post a picture too if that helps. Make sure to use the jumpers on the buses. Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Yes - test where the 2 transformer input wires are connected to the HOT and NEUTRAL buses. You should see 120V AC. Odds are you're seeing 0V AC which means there's a wiring problem somewhere not feeding 120V to the transformer. Post a picture too if that helps. Good luck!

Kal



I get 120V from the hot and neutral buses.

Here's a picture of the area. The DC power supports are disconnected currently:


Last edited by DFB on Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so when you place your two voltmeter probes at the exact 2 screws where one of the transformers in connected to the buses you measure 120VAC?
But you get close to 0VAC on the output side of the transformers by measuring across the two transformer output screws?

Is this happening on both transformers? Reason I ask is because transformers never tend to fail (the're just coils of wire with no moving parts) and the odds of both being damaged or defective is close to zero.

P.S. Your embedded image was absolutely massive (and was blowing out the page) so I changed it to not be embedded but a link. Wink
Kal

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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
so when you place your two voltmeter probes at the exact 2 screws where one of the transformers in connected to the buses you measure 120VAC?
Yes. I traced them back and get 120. FWIW - I get 120 if I touch both buses anywhere. I assume that's because of the jumper but figured I mention.

kal wrote:
But you get close to 0VAC on the output side of the transformers by measuring across the two transformer output screws?
It's actually exactly 0.000

It's on both transformers and sorry about the image... Trying to get it smaller in the test post area Smile
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kal
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Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bus jumpers just make sure that everything along the bus is shorted together (no need to use jumper wires).

It's impossible to follow wires in pictures but judging from the distance between the transformers and busses i'm assuming you've added some wire extensions? My guess is something isn't done right as there's very little else that can go wrong. I'd take out one (or both) of the transformers, power them from 120V directly from the busses or better yet directly from a wall outlet (carefully) with a patch cord. It's really hard to damage these sorts of transformers even if you short out the outputs by accident (though anything is possible I suppose). I can't tell where the green ground wires from the transformers go, but they should go to the grounding bar right beside them in your pic (though not connecting those won't change the output voltage).

I'm kind of grasping at straws here, but when measuring the input and output voltages you are using the AC voltage setting of your multimeter and your multimeter is able to read down to ~8 V AC or so ?

I'm sure the answer is very simple - so trying to help find it before suggesting to buy two new transformers (I see you bought your control panel kit in Sep 2019).

Kal

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Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
The bus jumpers just make sure that everything along the bus is shorted together (no need to use jumper wires).

It's impossible to follow wires in pictures but judging from the distance between the transformers and busses i'm assuming you've added some wire extensions? My guess is something isn't done right as there's very little else that can go wrong. I'd take out one (or both) of the transformers, power them from 120V directly from the busses or better yet directly from a wall outlet (carefully) with a patch cord. It's really hard to damage these sorts of transformers even if you short out the outputs by accident (though anything is possible I suppose). I can't tell where the green ground wires from the transformers go, but they should go to the grounding bar right beside them in your pic (though not connecting those won't change the output voltage).

I'm kind of grasping at straws here, but when measuring the input and output voltages you are using the AC voltage setting of your multimeter and your multimeter is able to read down to ~8 V AC or so ?

I'm sure the answer is very simple - so trying to help find it before suggesting to buy two new transformers (I see you bought your control panel kit in Sep 2019).

Kal


I peeled back the tubing on one of the doorbells. See picture. I get 120 there on the wire. Does the white wire looked a bit melted?

https://i.imgur.com/CMOMiON.jpg

Sorry for the link.... while I figured out the original one above this one isn't cooperating.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a high resolution/closer/brighter picture? Sorry, it's hard to tell. When soldering it's normal for some of the plastic sheathing to melt sometimes a bit if not careful but as long as you cover it up and protect it, it won't matter.

Kal

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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Do you have a high resolution/closer/brighter picture? Sorry, it's hard to tell. When soldering it's normal for some of the plastic sheathing to melt sometimes a bit if not careful but as long as you cover it up and protect it, it won't matter.

Kal


Here's another view.
https://imgur.com/dnLz09O

I tried to get the side that looks a bit suspect to me. BTW - I've removed the covering on the other one and it looks normal to me visually and was able to get 120 on that one too.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks fine to me, as long as it's properly covered up before use.

Kal

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DFB




Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I came back to this after dinner and it seems like it's going backwards again...

I turned it back on and checked the same places and got the same readings. Given the readings it makes sense to replace the transformers however having both failure is odd. I probably shouldn't have done it but I turned the switch on for a pump and checked the voltage at the external plug. Check. Did the next. Check. I then did that for the elements and again check on the right power.

Nothing out of the ordinary it seemed. However now when I power up the box with the on switch NOTHING lights up or really happens. Everything that did have power is now dead. The only place I can get a reading is at the in and out terminals of the power in relay (244).

Any thoughts?


EDIT - I just pulled the 7A fuse and it blew. Sad
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the 7A fuse blew something is likely shorting. Check your wiring. Unfortunately it’s hard to be specific as it could be anywhere after the fuse.

Kal

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