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Relays

 
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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:22 pm    Post subject: Relays Reply with quote


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Hello I have just carried out my first test brew on my new build system. Everything was going great till the boil,my system is a 70 litre stainless kettle with a 6kw element. I used the plans from the electric brewery but had trouble sourcing the 30A/240V DPDT or DPST relay with 110-120V AC coil. I went ahead and used HHC71A-JQX-30F-220VAC from aliexpress (see diagram) and they overheated and melted the bases. When I set my PID's to 100 degrees they melted and tripped the breaker, is this caused by bad parts or something else? I have fitted a cooling fan and a temperature readout to my SSR heat sink but the others overheat, could this be an issue?



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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Relays Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum!

fatmat wrote:
I used the plans from the electric brewery but had trouble sourcing the 30A/240V DPDT or DPST relay with 110-120V AC coil.

I link to these relays in our shop right from the instructions. Here are the exact relays:
https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/ssrs-relays-contactors/products/30a-240v-dpst-relay-110-120v-ac-coil

You can use contactors too if you prefer:
https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/ssrs-relays-contactors/products/50a-250v-dpst-contactor-110-120v-ac-coil

Or if you're building a DIN rail solution use these:
https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/ssrs-relays-contactors/products/32a-250v-dpst-contactor-110-120v-ac-coil-din-rail-mount

We ship worldwide.

Quote:
I went ahead and used HHC71A-JQX-30F-220VAC from aliexpress (see diagram) and they overheated and melted the bases. When I set my PID's to 100 degrees they melted and tripped the breaker, is this caused by bad parts or something else?

If they're unable to carry the the rated current they're probably junk. Could also be a poor connection between the relay and the socket which in turn creates heat. Again, not well built relays/sockets. You get what you pay for.

For high current connections like this I do not recommend friction fit either. Use something with bolts for a tight fit (as done in our build instructions). IMHO you're asking for trouble using friction fit spades that small on a relay that's passing 25 amps. It may work for a while but eventually with thermal expansion/contraction the contact points get less tight/smaller and things start to run hotter and eventually you have a runaway situation that melts things.

Quote:
I have fitted a cooling fan and a temperature readout to my SSR heat sink but the others overheat, could this be an issue?

Sorry, what do you mean by others? What other things overheat?

I recommend a large heat sink outside the enclosure to ensure proper cooling. A fan is then not required. Heat sinks are here: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/heat-sinks

Good luck!

Kal

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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the swift reply Kal, when I said the others overheat I meant the HHC71A-JQX-30F-220VAC relays. So if I was to replace with one of your recommend relays they also won't over heat? I'm a worried I spend a lot on new relays and shipping and I have the same problem.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The relays I linked to from our shop will not overheat when used correctly (as long as you don't pass more current through them than you're supposed to which you don't appear to be doing). Good luck!

Kal

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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:29 am    Post subject: Relays Reply with quote

Kal could you check this diagram please, is it correct to run one 6kw element? Many thanks


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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the wires on your neutral/live bus bars don't go anywhere (aren't connected together). I recommend these to make it simple: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/wiring/products/terminal-strip-jumper-8-position

Wire sizing isn't shown. I'm assuming you're sizing the wiring (and parts) correctly where required to handle 6000w (25 amps at 240V) correctly.
Make sure you ground everything. You don't show any ground wires.

All of the parts required are here: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections

Cheers!

Kal

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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:28 pm    Post subject: Relays Reply with quote

Thanks for replying, the bus bars are jumped in my panel sorry.
for the element I used 4mm 3 Core H07RN-F Black Rubber Cable 110V 240V HO7RN-F Indoor Outdoor Cable (1m)

The thicker cable on the diagram is US 10 gauge I used 6mm
The thinner cable on the diagram is US 14 gauge I used 2.5mm

Not shown on diagram all earthed Thanks
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

I don't understand your gauge to mm numbers I'm afraid. For example, American 10 gauge (AWG) is 2.59 mm in diameter, and 14 AWG is 1.63 mm in diameter. Maybe you mean something different?

Kal

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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry what used was


The thicker cable on the diagram I used 6mm
The thinner cable on the diagram I used 2.5mm
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

My point was that it seems extremely thicker than it needs to be.

For example, American 10 gauge (AWG) is 2.59 mm in diameter, but you said you used 6 mm diameter? 6 mm diameter wire is big enough for 3 AWG. It's overkill for a place that needs 10 AWG and you likely can't fit it in the screws / connectors as it's large.

Example of 3 AWG vs 10 AWG wire size:



Kal

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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could this overkill cause heat issues? I can't find my purchase history to check, I had no problem connecting.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, using larger than required wires can always be done and will work (as long as they fit).

I bring it up as the sizes you've mentioned are massive. They wouldn't fit. They probably are not what you are using.

Got any pictures?

Kal

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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:42 pm    Post subject: Relays Reply with quote

Hope this helps


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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That larger wire is definitely not 3 AWG. What numbers and text are printed on the different sized wiring?

Kal

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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry had to go in my control panel, couldn't see at first. 2.5mm and 4mm.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're mis-interpreting or mis-reading as 2.5 and 4 mm diameter wire is 10 gauge and 6 gauge. Your wire is not that thick. Maybe it's the cross sectional area that you're seeing? In that cause 2.5 and 4 mm cubed (square mm) is 13 gauge and 11 gauge. None of this is however relevant. I just wanted to make sure you're using the right size wire. But I'm not sure. Wink

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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fatmat




Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Kal, I appreciate your help and time. I'm going to fit two 40A DP Contactors and run a stress test. Thanks again!
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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