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Heating element Question
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Ok, I'm confused now. A few points above you wrote that the elements remain off when 0V DC is presented to the PIDs:

BrewCrew wrote:
so I get 14V at the SSR when Firing and 0v when not firing but the element remains off when at 0volts not sure where else to test

I take it you meant to say ON?

Either way, same logic applies. If you expect to get 0V at the receptacle outlets when the PID is not telling the SSR to fire but are getting 240V at the receptacle outlets, start measuring up and along the same way to see what's introducing 240V.

I would also double check the wall outlet as I recommended. I doubt that's the issue but you never know.

There's something weird/illogical here. From what we know so far I think you're saying you get 240V at the receptacle outlets regardless of whether the PID is sending 0VDC or 14VDC to the SSRS.

I would measure AC on the input and output sides of the BOIL and HLT relays. When an SSR is being fed 0V DC both sides of the relay should be 0V AC. When an SSR is being fed 14V DC both sides of the relay should be 240V AC.

Let us know what you find out.

It almost sounds like both SSRs are defective but I think you said you already replaced both. Since you replaced both my bet is that you either used incorrect SSRs or wired them incorrectly (to always be on). I bet the latter: My guess is that you wired the HOT line coming in to the side of the SSR that also then goes off to the relays. This would mean that you're always supplying power to the relays regardless of how the PIDs/SSRs are behaving. I would double check wiring. You can post pictures too if you like (but it's often hard to follow wiring in pictures if you can't see everything).

All this said it's very odd that both SSRs would need replacing. That's almost impossible. The odds of both dying at the exactly same time are a million to one. The only way that could happen is a lightning strike or something similar. Not impossible, just improbable.

Kal

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BrewCrew




Joined: 03 May 2016
Posts: 49
Location: Niagara


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I take it you meant to say ON?


Yes I meant on.


Today I assembled all the parts that were present when the breaker tripped and worked backwards pulling apart all the components so I can check what could have been the cause of the breaker to trip...... To give a little context I made 3 elements that control various equipment as I didn't want to swap the elements from one kettle to another. One is used as a warmer for slowly warming up honey, and I used the panel to maintain temperature similar to the hot liquor kettle, (Done this more times then I brew)...... so on the day the breaker tripped it got hot enough within the housing that the coating on the wires melted and the bare wire touched the side of the metal housing and shorted out. Just to make it clear this element is not the one I'm testing with. I'm using the elements in the kettles which were not part of the original short.

I'm thinking that the sort fried all the PID because due to the proximity of all the components the arc created by of the short would have definitely jumped to the PID's considering the flash made it up to clouded the plastic on the SSR. I could be wrong too.


I will have no choice but to swap out the PID's as i have no clue what it is i'm doing with a volt meter and nearly electrocuted myself a few time and probably shorting out other components while i'm at it.


And yes the SSR's are brand new, I will double check the wring again but as I removed one wire I placed it on the new SSR

Thanks

Jason [/quote]
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrewCrew wrote:
I'm thinking that the sort fried all the PID ... I will have no choice but to swap out the PID's

Except that you tested the voltage the PIDs are sending to the SSRs already and it seems to be working correctly. When the PID wants the SSR to fire you measured it's sending out 14VDC and when it wants the SSR to be off it's sending out 0VDC. So sounds like the PIDs are working ok.

I'd recommend post some pictures of the SSRs and the surrounding wiring (enough that I can see where they're coming from).

Kal

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BrewCrew




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Location: Niagara


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Except that you tested the voltage the PIDs are sending to the SSRs already and it seems to be working correctly. When the PID wants the SSR to fire you measured it's sending out 14VDC and when it wants the SSR to be off it's sending out 0VDC. So sounds like the PIDs are working ok.


yup that i did




Quote:
I'd recommend post some pictures of the SSRs and the surrounding wiring (enough that I can see where they're coming from).



A little bit of a mess in there but will do my best


Jason
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BrewCrew




Joined: 03 May 2016
Posts: 49
Location: Niagara


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd recommend post some pictures of the SSRs and the surrounding wiring (enough that I can see where they're coming from).


Hope these will do it



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SSR's.jpg


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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately no, as I can't follow any of the wires that go in and out of the SSRs. I can't tell where they come from or where they go. I'd suggest backing out a bit and also getting the highest resolution pics you can (you may have to host them elsewhere or you can email them to me directly at kal@theelectricbrewery.com as I don't have file size limits) .

Kal

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BrewCrew




Joined: 03 May 2016
Posts: 49
Location: Niagara


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI Kal

Quick update i had ordered 2 brand new SSR's and replaced them both as this was the cheaper place to start swapping parts. And everything is working perfectly again ..... must have been one heck of a short i had to affect both SSR's and apparently the spare i had on hand must not of been a good one

thanks for the help

Jason
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear you're back up and running Jason!

Kal

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