Heating element Question

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

Hello

So after over a year of using the panel a short happened and found some burned wires in the panel, I have since replaced them but the elements wont respond to the PID's. I have looked at the troubleshooting guide and have replaced the SSR's with ones new ones and the led lights are in sink with then ones on the PID's and still the elements are not responding and turning off when desired temps are reach.

I dont have spare PID's to test nor do I want to buy new one just to test "if" those are the problem, attached is a photo of where the burnt wire were (i pulled the screw prior to taking the photo), not sure how or why it happened after a year or so of using the panel flawlessly. is there some other way of testing the issue without swapping expensive parts as a means of troubleshooting?

Could it be the DPDT/DPST relay's that are the issue??

Thank you

Jason

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:43 pm Post subject:

Hi Jason,

I believe this a panel you assembled yourself, correct?

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:45 pm Post subject:

Wait a sec, re-reading what you wrote you mentioned "the elements wont respond to the PID's". Neither element work?

I think we need to understand a bit better what this short was that happened and what damage it caused.

What relay is shown in your picture where the loose connection happened?

Kal

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

Hi Kal

This is a kit I assembled myself and all the wires were tight and have had many brew days since assembling it without an issue.... not sure what happened or what caused it to short out, one minute i'm brewing and then the breaker tripped. After I noticed that the element stayed on continuously I checked the panel and found the burnt wire and everything was tight as far as the screws go. Been trying to trouble shoot it for a few weeks now without resolve of what it could be. I would swap out the pids but both are doing the same thing. when the PID's show the element on then the SSR led shows on when the PID's show off then the SSR led is off but the elements stay on. The photo in question is the boil kettle relay and that particular wire is the one that jumps from the HLT relay (See Photo) which could have fried the DSPD relays of both the Boil and HLT. Also the yellow lights for the elements are not corresponding to when the element is on and off its always on. This leads me to believe that the DSPD relays are the issue but again I dont want to swap out with new one if thats not the case and was hoping there was another means of testing.

Thanks

Jason

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:48 pm Post subject:

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject:

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:50 pm Post subject:

Does the voltmeter show 240V when the panel is on?

Last but not least, can you take a picture of the front of the panel when it's running past your set setting? I want to look at the lights. You may simply be in manual model and displaying the auto mode settings (and not realizing it).

Kal

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

Yup the panel shows 240 when turned on

attached are 2 pictures

the one label panelabove means the set value is high then perceived value

and the panelbelow is the set value is below the perceived value

on both you will see the yellow light on and the amps are at 22.9 and the element is on regardless

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:22 pm Post subject:

Thanks!

In both cases we're dealing with the HLT PID. I see the A/M light is off which is good. It means you're in AUTOMATIC mode which means you set the temperature. You set SV to whatever temp you want, and it'll heat up.

In the PANELABOVE pic where the SV (set value) is below the measured PV (process value) the green "OUT" light on the HLT PID is on which is normal. The PID wants to fire the SSR to get up the PV up to SV. The yellow ELEMENT ON light is good meaning the SSR is firing. Good.

In the PANELBELOW pic where the SV (set value) is already above the measured PV (process value) the green "OUT" light on the HLT PID is off which is also normal. This is good. The PID does not want to fire the SSR, but the yellow ELEMENT ON light is still on meaning that the SSR is not firing. That's not good.

SSRs do fail sometimes in rare occasions but what's odd is that you mentioned both sides (BOIL and HLT) are doing exactly the same thing. The odds of two SSRs failing at exactly the same time doesn't seem plausible.

This is all separate from your lose wiring connection issue however. Or maybe it isn't? If you're not sure how to use a multimeter to troubleshoot I would replace one SSR and see what happens. If you have someone nearby who knows how to use a multimeter maybe see if they can help too - someone knowledgeable should be able to quickly test. Good luck!

Kal

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

That’s the thing I already replaced the SSR with a brand new one that works in a different panel and still the same behavior ..... only thing I can think of is both PID’s are fried or the relay dpdt relays are remaining closed all the time no??

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:40 pm Post subject:

If the PIDs are fried and always sending an output signal to fire the SSRs then yes, that could be it. You'd see the SSRs red light as on too (that would be a good confirmation) or measure the DC voltage on the SSR inputs. It should be 0V DC if the PID is not firing and around 12V DC when firing.

As I mentioned above if the DPDT relays remained closed all the time it wouldn't change anything. They only *allow* current to pass. The SSRs have to also fire and close (and they are normally controlled by the PIDs).

Kal

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

I will procure a meter from work and see if I can measure something

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:58 pm Post subject:

Let us know what you find out!

For what it's worth, we do get asked by people who build our kits to have us fix issues for them, but it's usually always going to be simpler/easier to fix a part yourself and we're here to help! It's usually something very simple and all parts are easy for the end user to replace themselves. That's how we designed it.

Kal

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

so i tried using this multi meter but not getting any readings so I must be using it wrong or testing the wrong thing.... is there a particular setting I should use or return this crap.

**kal** · Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:44 pm Post subject:

You're probably trying to to measure AC volts right now right?

Right now you have it set to measure up to 20V DC (the DC voltages ranges are the settings with the little V with the solid and dotted line underneath). Turn the dial clockwise to the V with a squiggle under it (that's AC) and put it on the 300 setting. That will let you measure up to 300V AC.

If you want to measure the SSR input, switch it back to 20V DC, but most other places you want to use 300 volts AC.

You also need to plug in the leads. Wink

Kal

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara

so I get 14V at the SSR when Firing and 0v when not firing but the element remains off when at 0volts not sure where else to test

**kal** · Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:21 pm Post subject:

See my previous suggestions above here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=331560#331560

Kal

BrewCrew · Joined: 03 May 2016 Posts: 49 Location: Niagara