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Slow Temp Steps

 
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mplsugly




Joined: 30 Dec 2017
Posts: 6



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:06 pm    Post subject: Slow Temp Steps Reply with quote


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Hi All,

I just wanted to get some feedback on temp steps with a 5500W HERMS system. Currently I have the fairly typical three keg system with a 50', 1/2" Stainless coil in my HLT fired by a 5500W ULD element. It maintains temps great but when it comes to stepping up for a mash out I feel like it takes forever!

I start heating my HLT from mash temp to 170 around the 45min mark and it usually takes at least 20 min to get up to temp but then it takes my mash a LONG time to get up to mash out temp. Maybe 30-40 min. I usually expedite this by throwing in a gallon or two of hot sparge water and continue to recirculate until im up around 165 and then start to fly sparge and drain.

I'm not insulating any of my lines but they aren't too long. I also don't have any insulation on my mash tun so I guess I could be losing a lot of the heat I’m adding but I don’t think it should be this bad. I’ve played with pump recerc speed a bit and I’m usually adding in fairly hot wort, maybe 3-7 degrees off from HLT temp.

So what’s the deal? Do you guys have some long step times when going to mash out or other step increases of 10 degrees or more? Is this normal or should I try to improve this in some way? Any tips would be appreciated. Oh, also I’m running 11 gallon batches in general.

Thanks!
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

- What pumps? How do you run them (what speed)? Best to run them at 100% speed all the time when ramping up temperatures. For complete details see my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide on recommendations.
- Got any pictures of the setup? Need to see where and how you're measuring temps, how your kettle fittings are setup, etc. Just to see if there's anything that sticks out as odd.

mplsugly wrote:
I start heating my HLT from mash temp to 170 around the 45min mark...

45 mins into mashing? Do you always do this so early? Or only mashes that are done at higher temperatures that have already mostly converted after 45 mins?

(For what it's worth, I may be a bit overboard with my mash lengths as I never do less than 90 minutes but it helps increase my mash efficiency into the high 90's. If I'm really mashing low like 148-149F I'll often go 180 mins even. I did such a low mash on my last 2 lagers which I want very dry)

Quote:
... and it usually takes at least 20 min to get up to temp but then it takes my mash a LONG time to get up to mash out temp. Maybe 30-40 min.

An extra 30-40 mins after the HLT is already at temperature? That seems very long. The mash will always lag slightly behind the HLT but not that long for your batch size unless you have a huge grain bill (like over 1.100).

Quote:
I usually expedite this by throwing in a gallon or two of hot sparge water and continue to recirculate until im up around 165 and then start to fly sparge and drain.

You throw the gallon or two of hot sparge water into where? Into the mash? Doesn't that disturb the grain bed that's been set through constant recirc?

Quote:
I'm not insulating any of my lines but they aren't too long. I also don't have any insulation on my mash tun so I guess I could be losing a lot of the heat I’m adding but I don’t think it should be this bad.

Shouldn't be unless you're brewing in extreme cold.

Quote:
I’ve played with pump recerc speed a bit and I’m usually adding in fairly hot wort, maybe 3-7 degrees off from HLT temp.

Run both pumps at 100% for max heat transfer.
What do you mean by "I'm usually adding in fairly hot wort"?

Quote:
So what’s the deal? Do you guys have some long step times when going to mash out or other step increases of 10 degrees or more?

Nope. Usually just lags a few minutes behind. Check out the mash/mashout videos in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide for examples.

Cheers!

Kal

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mplsugly




Joined: 30 Dec 2017
Posts: 6



PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i!

- What pumps? How do you run them (what speed)? Best to run them at 100% speed all the time when ramping up temperatures. For complete details see my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide on recommendations.
- Got any pictures of the setup? Need to see where and how you're measuring temps, how your kettle fittings are setup, etc. Just to see if there's anything that sticks out as odd.

*****Oddly, I don't have many pictures of my rig. I measure mash temp at the outlet. Because of this I know my reading is a little low and the bulk of my grain be is a little warmer than this temp, If I want to mash at 152 I aim to hit this reading at 151, the top of the grain be will be 152.

I measure HLT temp near the bottom and not too far from the element but I run a recirculation pump and that keeps the HLT reading consistent and accurate when I check it.

mplsugly wrote:
I start heating my HLT from mash temp to 170 around the 45min mark...

45 mins into mashing? Do you always do this so early? Or only mashes that are done at higher temperatures that have already mostly converted after 45 mins?

*****No I mash a full hour, I just start heating my HLT at 45 min. The mash won't really change much in that 15 min of pre heating. Maybe i pick up a degree or two but I also check for conversion before I start to ramp up the temp.

(For what it's worth, I may be a bit overboard with my mash lengths as I never do less than 90 minutes but it helps increase my mash efficiency into the high 90's. If I'm really mashing low like 148-149F I'll often go 180 mins even. I did such a low mash on my last 2 lagers which I want very dry)

*****Never done that. My mash efficiency is always in the 90s so I don't worry about it. Lagers I do 90 min.

Quote:
... and it usually takes at least 20 min to get up to temp but then it takes my mash a LONG time to get up to mash out temp. Maybe 30-40 min.

An extra 30-40 mins after the HLT is already at temperature? That seems very long. The mash will always lag slightly behind the HLT but not that long for your batch size unless you have a huge grain bill (like over 1.100).

*****Yup, that's my issue. I guess my HLT won't be fully up to temp but all in all, it just feels like its taking longer than it should.

Quote:
I usually expedite this by throwing in a gallon or two of hot sparge water and continue to recirculate until im up around 165 and then start to fly sparge and drain.

You throw the gallon or two of hot sparge water into where? Into the mash? Doesn't that disturb the grain bed that's been set through constant recirc?

*****Yes into the mash. No it doesn't upset the grainbed. I don't "throw" per say but in reality, I'm going to recirc for another 20-30 min to get up to mash out temp and that is plenty of time for the grain bed to set again. My recirculation is still clear.

Quote:
I'm not insulating any of my lines but they aren't too long. I also don't have any insulation on my mash tun so I guess I could be losing a lot of the heat I’m adding but I don’t think it should be this bad.

Shouldn't be unless you're brewing in extreme cold.

*****OK, thanks!

Quote:
I’ve played with pump recerc speed a bit and I’m usually adding in fairly hot wort, maybe 3-7 degrees off from HLT temp.

Run both pumps at 100% for max heat transfer.
What do you mean by "I'm usually adding in fairly hot wort"?

*****Maybe this is my issue. I run my HLT recirculation pump at full speed, so no issue there and no reason not to. However I don't typically run my HERMS pump (chugger) at full speed because I have had a stuck sparge when doing that but that could have been the grain bills fault too. When I say " fairly hot wort" I meant that the wort exiting the HERMS coil and going back into mash is always very close to the HLT temp if not spot on. Im not missing out on heat exchange but I could be missing out on some flow. But I should probably play with pump speed and see if this helps.

Quote:
So what’s the deal? Do you guys have some long step times when going to mash out or other step increases of 10 degrees or more?

Nope. Usually just lags a few minutes behind. Check out the mash/mashout videos in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide for examples.

Cheers!

Kal

*****Thanks for the insight. I think I may need to play with pump speed. I worry about a stuck sparge at full speed but if you don't typically have problems Ill give it a shot. Let me see if I can dig up a picture or two.

Cheers
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mplsugly wrote:
Oddly, I don't have many pictures of my rig.

Are you able to take any? Videos would help too. There are possibly some odd things going on here and often the issue is that you don't see them yourself (otherwise you would have changed something or corrected it). This is very common and is simply human nature as we don't see what we don't notice, so picture help greatly as it removes the human element.

Quote:
No I mash a full hour, I just start heating my HLT at 45 min. The mash won't really change much in that 15 min of pre heating.

That in itself is odd. After only a minute of switching my HLT from mash temp to mashout temp it's already climbing. After 15 minutes my HLT (usually with about 10-12 gallons left in it) is close to mashout temp already.

Quote:
*****Maybe this is my issue. I run my HLT recirculation pump at full speed, so no issue there and no reason not to. However I don't typically run my HERMS pump (chugger) at full speed because I have had a stuck sparge when doing that but that could have been the grain bills fault too.

That's one issue. You should run the mash pump 100% open too. Otherwise it'll take considerably longer to heat all of the mash as you're heating it only a bit at a time. The slower you run the pump, the longer it takes. If you get stuck mashes, work on your false bottom solution. Also make sure you mill very loose, not tight. With recirculating setups you'll get better efficiency by milling loose. See my GRAIN MILL and BREW DAY STEP BY STEP articles for more info:

Grain Mill: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/grain-mill
Brew day step by step: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

I can't explain why your HLT is taking so long to heat up however if you're running the HLT pump wide open. This one reason pictures/videos may help. There's something here that is missing.

Also make sure that your HLT heating element is wired to get 240V and that you haven't wired it for 120V by accident. That would result in 1/4 the power and is a common issue. Our 5500W heating elements will raise the temperature of 1 gallon of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit in approximately 1.6 seconds. If you're not getting close to that in the HLT, something's not right somewhere.

Cheers,

Kal

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dermotstratton




Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's one issue. You should run the mash pump 100% open too. Otherwise it'll take considerably longer to heat all of the mash as you're heating it only a bit at a time. The slower you run the pump, the longer it takes. If you get stuck mashes, work on your false bottom solution.


I have also struggle with getting steps to occur quickly and after reading this, I realize that one of the main issues was not having sufficient flow through HERMS coil.

My concern is that running the wort through the HERMS too fast generates a whirlpool effect in the mash tun and is not an ideal way to set a grain bed. Also, I assumed that turbidity in the mash tun is not a good thing.

Any thoughts on that?
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum!

It's not a concern if you follow my design and use the equipment recommended. Run both pumps 100% open. Take a look at my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP or many of my 50+ recipes for videos of this in action. It's not a concern.


Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a similar situation last weekend when my mash temp didn't seem to catch up to the HLT temp which was odd. I played around with both pump output valves. It was odd because I normally have no issues with both pumps 100% open. Turns out my mash temp probe off-set was incorrect - I must have inadvertently changed it when cycling through the various mash PID settings earlier in the day. The actual mash temp was correctly following the HLT temp all along.
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