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PID Question for Kal
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brewmaster




Joined: 12 Jan 2019
Posts: 31
Location: Oscoda, MI


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: PID Question for Kal Reply with quote


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Any particular reason you are using SYL-2352 PID vs. an "Easy Boil" (DSPR120) for the Boiling operations? Seems like the Easy Boil is specifically designed for this purpose (and slightly less expensive). The SYL-2352 seems a bit more than is necessary for boiling????
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

We get asked this question once and a while when building control panels for customers or supplying control panel kits. We're happy to use an EZBoil control anywhere regular PIDs are used if someone prefers. Once we explain the differences however, we've never had anyone take us up on the offer. Here's why:

If using the regular EZBoil for the boil PID and you do things like hop stands, it's more work (more clicks) to switch between auto and manual modes with the EZBoil PID than the PIDs we normally include in our control panels. Hop Stands are used a lot in newer style IPAs like NEIPAs where temperature is held after the boil at a very specific temperature for extended duration. See my Electric Hop Candy (NEIPA) recipe for more information: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30768

Some people want to be able to turn the dial up/down quickly but that ease is completely lost on me as I don't find myself ever wanting to turn the power dial up and down as I boil. I run at 100% until I hit boil then turn it down to 85%. If I need to turn it off quickly, it's better to just turn the ELEMENT ON/OFF switch to OFF to cut power completely without changing the PID setting so that it's quick to get back to where you want after (you just turn the ELEMENT ON/OFF switch to ON instead of having to re-enter the boil % to where you were before). If a brewer finds themselves having to turn the boil power up and down a lot while boiling for the 60+ minutes, I would argue that something broken with the process. You shouldn't have to do that. See my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP for the process I use: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Constantly playing with the boil rate will also produce inconsistent beers because your boil off rate will be different every time. Best to leave it alone to produce the most consistent beers.

There is a more expensive EZBoil model too that can be used in the HLT to automate your mash steps but again, I don't understand the point. Unless you only brew one beer ever, every beer will require a different mash temp and/or steps so you need to reprogram all these steps every time before you start brewing. Reprogramming these steps takes longer than simply hitting the temperature "up" button on brew day given the lack of an easy to use screen interface on the PID (which also makes it prone to error). Step mashes are not overly timing sensitive. It makes no difference if you sit an extra few seconds or even minutes at a specific temperature before moving up to the next temperature, so automating brewing step mashes to me doesn't make any sense. We're not curing rubber molds or similar at very specific temperatures (another popular use for PIDs) for very specific times where only a few seconds more can cause disaster.

Using the same PIDs across all 3 units also simplifies the setup as the programming steps are the same and you have identical backup equipment across all 3 kettles.

Again, we're happy to use an EZBoil control anywhere if you prefer in our kits or pre-assembled control panels. The price between the two units is pretty much the same (The simplest EZ-Boil is actually about 50 cents more expensive but we can include it at no extra cost, the more advanced ones that include steps are about $30 more). That said, we've only had a few people ask, and so far we've actually never built any panels with it after we explain that our panels are probably easier to use and more standard with a regular PID. The choice is yours of course.

Good luck!

Kal

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brewmaster




Joined: 12 Jan 2019
Posts: 31
Location: Oscoda, MI


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal, good information!
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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 664
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,
I will have to disagree with you on ease of use on the EZBoil. I find it much easier to adjust and control. I previously used the one you recommend but after building a control panel for a friend who decided to go with the EZBoil I quickly realized I wanted one. I'm extremely happy with mine and will plan on replacing the HLT to a EZBoil down the road. I find the EZBoil holds temps way better at any point, not just the one temp you did the auto tune at. The EZBoil also uses a percent of the element power, not on/off like the 2352 does. I think that feature help a lot with not over shooting temps and maintaining them.

I'm not following you on the hop stand comments. Pretty easy to just push the knob, roll it one click to "mash" then push it again. Then you roll the knob to the desired temp. If you're doing several temps it is very easy to just roll the knob again.

With regards to why change power in the boil. With your process you wouldn't need to. I however recirculate through the counterflow chiller the last 20 minutes of the boil to sanitize it. When you flip on the pump and the wort flows through the CFC and back into the kettle the boil stops right away. I ramp up the BK to 100% to offset this. Work well and all I have to do is roll the knob. The 2352 seemed to be much more of a pain of changing power quickly.

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely different ways to do things! Good to have options too. As I mentioned previously we're happy to use either in our kits or pre-built panels. The choice is up to the brewer.

I'm surprised your 2352 in the HLT doesn't hold at whatever temperature you set it to. Mine holds perfectly within the range I use it in (I've done as low as in the 120-130F range for a protein rests all the way up to 168-170F for mashout. I set it and it ramps up and holds.

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 664
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:

I'm surprised your 2352 in the HLT doesn't hold at whatever temperature you set it to. Mine holds perfectly within the range I use it in (I've done as low as in the 120-130F range for a protein rests all the way up to 168-170F for mashout. I set it and it ramps up and holds.

Kal

Mine holds the 152 degree temp like a champ but anything outside of that I'm off by 4 degrees (overshoots).

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's odd. When auto-tuning a PID, while it done to a specific temperature, it should still hold very well at other temperatures close to that temperature (this depends on the heat exchange dynamics of setup). For brewing setups (which tend to be highly dampened/slow to respond), tuning in the mid 150s should give you a wide range at which it will hold well.

Something is not right if it holds well if it's set to 152F but is off by 4 degrees if set to (say) 148-150F.

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 664
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

Working on: Nothing


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:


Something is not right if it holds well if it's set to 152F but is off by 4 degrees if set to (say) 148-150F.

Kal


Let me backup a bit. This is in relationship to starting with cold water. If I set it to anything between 148-154 it holds well. I did the auto tune at 152. But if I set it at say 156 it will level out at around 160.

Once I'm mashing at 152 and raise to 169 it normally hits that number or maybe goes to 170.

So the main problem is starting with water that is about 55 degrees and going up to something outside the 148-154 range.

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starting water temp shouldn't matter. What you're seeing is not normal.

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess what I meant by that was that I'm seeing the issue when the PID has to really ramp up to get to the target temp. I don't see the issue as much when I'm going from one temp to the next. At some point I'll just switch out with the EZBoil and see if my issue goes away.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand. I would reset the P/I/D settings to their defaults as it should not overshot like that just because it's coming from 'farther away'. If it's doing that, the system is not tuned properly as it's overshooting if coming from a lower temp.

Generally speaking most HERMS and BIAB (Brew in a Bag) setups should work fine with the following values:

P = 40
I = 350
D = 2

You may want to try those first.

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




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Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome! Thank you, I will give that a shot.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem!

More info in the control panel setup page: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 664
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

Working on: Nothing


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to follow up and say it worked. I changed my values to what Kal suggested, then did a Auto Tune. Now it works like a champ.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news!

Kal

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John Mac




Joined: 18 Apr 2019
Posts: 6
Location: West Chester PA


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I read correctly that you would consider swapping the PIDs included in a preassembled unit or kit? Would that include switching over to all Omega PIDs as well as the timer? With the necessary cost adjustment for the more expensive gear of course.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mac wrote:
Did I read correctly that you would consider swapping the PIDs included in a preassembled unit or kit? Would that include switching over to all Omega PIDs as well as the timer? With the necessary cost adjustment for the more expensive gear of course.

Email us at sales@theelectricbrewery.com and we can discuss your needs!

Kal

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GozzieBoy




Joined: 27 Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Location: Carolina


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A tangentially related PID question: Have you seen the PIDs lose their settings and go back to default? In my last brew, I could not get my PVs close to the SVs on either HLT or BK; the elements weren't on all the time, but too much such that temps crept 5-10 degF higher than SV. Thus I had to do a lot of manual switching during the session to keep the temps close to the desired range. Afterwards, I found that the key PID settings were all back to default values. Not sure how this happened. I reset them and they seem to be holding again, but wonder if this will be a recurring event.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GozzieBoy wrote:
A tangentially related PID question: Have you seen the PIDs lose their settings and go back to default? In my last brew, I could not get my PVs close to the SVs on either HLT or BK; the elements weren't on all the time, but too much such that temps crept 5-10 degF higher than SV. Thus I had to do a lot of manual switching during the session to keep the temps close to the desired range. Afterwards, I found that the key PID settings were all back to default values. Not sure how this happened. I reset them and they seem to be holding again, but wonder if this will be a recurring event.

I have never seen or heard of that happening.

Kal

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GozzieBoy




Joined: 27 Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Location: Carolina


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you have now. I am absolutely certain that the values were properly set before the first brew, and had about 10 sessions with zero problems. Then this happened. Maybe an electrical spike during a storm? Hopefully this isn't the start of an outbreak! Smile Will let you know if I see any subsequent issues. Thanks.
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