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Introduction and Quick 10 Gauge Wire Question

 
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Electricbrew



Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 7
Location: VA


PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:41 am    Post subject: Introduction and Quick 10 Gauge Wire Question Reply with quote


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First off I'd like to say hello, I'm fairly new to brewing (been brewing about a year now and love it!) I do all grain but have been doing 1 to 3 gallon BIAB, but have recently decided to build my own little electric brewery! It will consist of two 15 gallon stainless kettles (for HLT and boil kettle) with 5500 watt elements and a mash tun. I'm just now getting around to building the control panel and have a quick question for those who have built there own... Any idea roughly how many feet of 10 gauge wire you used inside your panel? I'm going to be buying it by the foot and just wanted a rough idea of how much to start out with so I don't end up with way more than I need. Anyway I'm excited to take on this project and enjoy this forum!



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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9847
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Maibock, Kolsch, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: West Coast Blaster (American Red IPA)


PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats on the build and welcome to the forum!

How much wiring you use depends on your actual design and how you end up routing the wire too (as there is more than one way to route).

Your panel is different from our 'standard' design (less parts) and the enclosure is smaller so you'll likely use less than what we use, but take a look at our parts list for the number of feet of each wire: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/parts-list-for-building

It should give you a rough idea. Note that my numbers may be a bit on the high side compared to what I actually used as everyone wires differently. We also include more wire than is required in all of our kits because of this this. Our 30A wiring kit as well:



The wire we use in our all of our pre-assembled panels and kits is in our shop here: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/wiring

Good luck!
Kal

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Electricbrew



Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 7
Location: VA


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Kal! That is very helpful, I have already learned so much reading this forum and am looking forward to learning so much more during my build! Thanks again!
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9847
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Maibock, Kolsch, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: West Coast Blaster (American Red IPA)


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with your build and happy brewing!

Kal

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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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Electricbrew



Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 7
Location: VA


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and one more quick question on 10/4 soow wire, I was ready to buy a 25ft length of it when I noticed the rating said 600V 25amp, I thought 10 gauge wire was rated up to 30 amp, I assume this means at 600v its rated at 25amp so at 220v or 240v the cable should be fine for 30amp?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9847
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Maibock, Kolsch, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: West Coast Blaster (American Red IPA)


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't make that assumption. Max voltage is usually related to the insulation (dielectric) properties of the wire. Amperage is rated to the gauge. I don't know why the 10 ga wire you're looking at is only rated to 25. I would suggest finding wire rated to 30A.

If this is for a the power cord, we can make you a custom one if you like. Let us know.

Kal

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itsnotrequired



Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 166
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electricbrew wrote:
Oh and one more quick question on 10/4 soow wire, I was ready to buy a 25ft length of it when I noticed the rating said 600V 25amp, I thought 10 gauge wire was rated up to 30 amp, I assume this means at 600v its rated at 25amp so at 220v or 240v the cable should be fine for 30amp?


the following is in regards to nec requirements, other country codes may be different.

article 400 of the nec addresses flexible cords and cables. 400.5 addresses allowable ampacity in a flexible cord/cable and specific limits are identified in table 400.5(A)(1). for a #10 soow cable, a limit of 25 amps is identified but only in column A of the table. column B indicates 30 amp ampacity. column A is for three-conductor cords (more specifically, three current-carrying conductors) and column B is for two-conductor cords (two current-carrying conductors). the ground conductor does not count as current carrying. but what about the neutral? does it count as current-carrying?

the key text is 'current-carrying conductors', which dictates which column of table 400.5(A)(1) is applicable, regardless of the number of conductors in the cable. three conductors carry current? use column A. only two carry current? use column B. assuming a 'typical' 240v brew panel with 120v pumps, the two hot conductors are clearly carrying current but what about the neutral current for the pumps? article 310.15(B)(5)(a) states the neutral current does not as current-carrying if it carries 'only the unbalanced current from other conductors of the same circuit'. so while it is true that the neutral will carry current when those pumps are on, they are not considered current-carrying for purposes of applying derating factors. thus, only two are considered current carry, column B of table 400.5(A)(1) can be used and the cord is good for 30 amps.

the label on the cord will say 25 amp maximum because the manufacturer can't know what circuits/systems the cord will be used on. 10/4 could easily be used on a three-phase system and column A ampacity limits would need to be used (25A limit). for liability purposes, manufacturer prints the lower ampacity limit.

long story short, no worries on using that #10 soow cord on your 30 amp system, i have the same setup (as do thousands of other brewers). even if some legal-beagle made the argument that the neutral is current carrying, the practical impact is essentially zero. ampacity limits are all about heat limits and how much extra heat does that pump neutral add? or think of it this way, as if the pump was 240v. now there is no neutral so clearly the 30 amp limit is applicable but what is the difference in total amps through the cable between these two scenarios? none. if i can push, say, 28 amps of juice through an only 240v system, what is the extra heat load if i push the same amount of power through a 240v system with neutral?
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Electricbrew



Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 7
Location: VA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

itsnotrequired wrote:
Electricbrew wrote:
Oh and one more quick question on 10/4 soow wire, I was ready to buy a 25ft length of it when I noticed the rating said 600V 25amp, I thought 10 gauge wire was rated up to 30 amp, I assume this means at 600v its rated at 25amp so at 220v or 240v the cable should be fine for 30amp?


the following is in regards to nec requirements, other country codes may be different.

article 400 of the nec addresses flexible cords and cables. 400.5 addresses allowable ampacity in a flexible cord/cable and specific limits are identified in table 400.5(A)(1). for a #10 soow cable, a limit of 25 amps is identified but only in column A of the table. column B indicates 30 amp ampacity. column A is for three-conductor cords (more specifically, three current-carrying conductors) and column B is for two-conductor cords (two current-carrying conductors). the ground conductor does not count as current carrying. but what about the neutral? does it count as current-carrying?

the key text is 'current-carrying conductors', which dictates which column of table 400.5(A)(1) is applicable, regardless of the number of conductors in the cable. three conductors carry current? use column A. only two carry current? use column B. assuming a 'typical' 240v brew panel with 120v pumps, the two hot conductors are clearly carrying current but what about the neutral current for the pumps? article 310.15(B)(5)(a) states the neutral current does not as current-carrying if it carries 'only the unbalanced current from other conductors of the same circuit'. so while it is true that the neutral will carry current when those pumps are on, they are not considered current-carrying for purposes of applying derating factors. thus, only two are considered current carry, column B of table 400.5(A)(1) can be used and the cord is good for 30 amps.

the label on the cord will say 25 amp maximum because the manufacturer can't know what circuits/systems the cord will be used on. 10/4 could easily be used on a three-phase system and column A ampacity limits would need to be used (25A limit). for liability purposes, manufacturer prints the lower ampacity limit.

long story short, no worries on using that #10 soow cord on your 30 amp system, i have the same setup (as do thousands of other brewers). even if some legal-beagle made the argument that the neutral is current carrying, the practical impact is essentially zero. ampacity limits are all about heat limits and how much extra heat does that pump neutral add? or think of it this way, as if the pump was 240v. now there is no neutral so clearly the 30 amp limit is applicable but what is the difference in total amps through the cable between these two scenarios? none. if i can push, say, 28 amps of juice through an only 240v system, what is the extra heat load if i push the same amount of power through a 240v system with neutral?


Thank you so much for the reply! I was able to get the wire I needed, thanks again, I appreciate it!
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