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Mash tun pot inside another pot? - Water jacketed MLT

 
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McGruber



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 233
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Mash tun pot inside another pot? - Water jacketed MLT Reply with quote


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Hello all,

I'm just wondering if anyone has seen or made what would essentially be a jacketed MLT? Like a steam jacket on a commercial mash tun.

What got me thinking about this is I'm currently brewing a French Saison and 30% of the recipe is rye and wheat. As tends to happen with these thicker grains, and because I did a protein rest at 50'C (which increases the viscosity of the mash), I've experienced a stuck mash several times today. I've "fixed" the problem by adding rice hulls (a half pound at a time) and have added a total of 2 lbs. This trouble-shooting has caused my "30 minute" protein rest phase to last more than 2 hours. From a quality/ repeatability/ length of brewday standpoint this makes me craaaazy. I expect this beer may be considerably dryer and much more tannic than I intended. I did have a mill issue and expected to have some stuck mash issues as it was. My mill gap is correct, but one of my mill rollers got jammed up (not the drive roller), and about 1/3 of my grist got shredded to flour before I noticed and unstuck the roller.

At baseline for me (20 gal Blichmann's - and pretty much a Kal clone), for all control panel temp increases the temperature rate of rise (ROR) in the MLT is roughly double the ROR in the HLT. Often, raising step-mash temp to knockout temp takes 30-45 min, where the HLT only takes 15 or so minutes.

I had the thought that it would be nice to be able to increase the temperature of the mash 1.) Faster and 2.) Not solely dependent on through-grain-flow as is typical in RIMS and HERMS systems. If I could raise the temp of the mash independent of flow rate, then viscosity would decrease faster, enzymes would work to break down sugars and proteins faster, and brew day length could be reduced.

I'm considering buying a 30 gallon kettle that I could stick my MLT inside of. Water would still be heated in the HLT. Hot water would be pumped out of both the bottom of the HLT and the 30 gal pot via a Tee, and then be pumped back into the HLT and the 30 gal also through a Tee. The 30 gal pot would work as a water bath for my existing 20 gal pot.

I have a few ideas on how to support the 20 gal, how to still use the 20 gal site glass, and I would still generally recirculate this HERMS system as designed. I'd just have a better/ alternate way to heat the MLT.

Has anyone tried or seen this?

Thanks,
McGruber
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10545
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd! I'm confused why you get a stuck mash with only 30% huskless grain. I've done up to 60% wheat (huskless) and had zero stuck flow or stuck sparges with my 20 gal Blichmann false bottom and the other equipment I use.

You say your mill gap is "correct" but what mill gap is that?
Do you run your pumps 100% open? What pumps are they?

Kal

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McGruber



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 233
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, like I said, I know I floured a whole bunch of the grist. On the first pass I may have completely shredded up to half of the husks. Then I ran it through the mill again to crush the relatively high percentage of un-crushed malt that made it through the mill after I *mostly* fixed the issue. The resulting grist had a lot less mostly-intact husk than I've maybe ever had. I knew I'd have issues vorlaufing because average resulting grist size was so small. I do usually have to add a little bit of rice hull to anything over 40% wheat myself.

I have a Monster Mill 3-roller. I milled the barley at 0.055" and the wheat/ rye at 0.035". 0.055 usually works fine, but it missed some grain this time so I passed it all through again at 0.050. But even then the roller was still not rolling correctly. I pulled my mill apart after milling and found a bunch of grain compacted in the space where the roller spins within the gap adjustment dial. That was reducing spin and caused a bunch of shredding.

Yeah, I run pumps and valves 100% open (eventually). My procedure is I take about 5 min to mash in, I stir the mash gently with my paddle for 5 min, and then I let it settle 5 min. Then I turn on the pump and open the valve over about 2 min to 100%. I have SS March pumps. I haven't had a stuck mash in forever using this procedure.

Kal, what kind of rate of rise do you get? Same as me at about twice as long for grain vs HLT? Have you seen anyone try a "jacketed" type MLT as I described?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10545
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McGruber wrote:
Well, like I said, I know I floured a whole bunch of the grist. On the first pass I may have completely shredded up to half of the husks.

Ok, maybe I'm not understanding then but if you made a mistake that involves you doing something you don't normally do and don't want to do in the future, why change the setup with a bunch of new hardware? Sorry, but I'm clearly not understanding something.

Quote:
Kal, what kind of rate of rise do you get? Same as me at about twice as long for grain vs HLT?

Depends on the amount of grain. The more grain you have, the more mass you have, the longer it takes. So every beer is different, I probably mention how long it takes for a ~5% ABV beer in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP article but that would only be for that one beer for the batch size in question.

Quote:
Have you seen anyone try a "jacketed" type MLT as I described?

Not in homebrewer sized setups. In giant 5-10+ bbl setups, yes.

Kal

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