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temperatures not equalizing
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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: temperatures not equalizing Reply with quote


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Hi All! I finally got things set up and running and have done 2 brews so far on the new system. The first went so-so and the second went great! I do have one question if anyone has seen the same thing before. I have a cheapo thermometer that I did the "calibrating" with but I have since ordered a thermapen. The numbers I took then matched what the probes said, more or less. The largest "discrepancy" I had was the probe read 148, but the thermometer read 148.8. During my water test, for whatever reason, I noticed I'm losing 2 degrees when recirculating through the HERMS coil. I've set the HLT two degrees higher and the next water test went fine and the first brew went fine in that regard.

Now to get to my question - this happened over the weekend so I didn't have the thermapen yet, and these were the actual readings from the probes. The mash temp was at 153, I had the HLT set to 155 but it was actually at 157 and the element continued to fire. The temp of the HLT kept going up so I shut off the element to let things drop and manually turned it back on when it was at 155 to help keep the temp stable. I would think if the HLT temp is higher than what I set it to, the element would not fire until the temp dropped back down. Is it possible I have something not tuned or configured properly?
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dp Brewing Company



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 651
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Black Sheep NEIPA, Rye Not Today, Kick of the Irish

Working on: RIS Barrel Aged


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you were in manual mode. Can you confirm what mode you were in?
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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a picture of the PID at the time, I don't have any lights on for AL1 AL2 or A-M. OUT is lit up (element is on). Is manual mode when A-M is lit?
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dp Brewing Company



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 651
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Black Sheep NEIPA, Rye Not Today, Kick of the Irish

Working on: RIS Barrel Aged


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siestakey wrote:
I took a picture of the PID at the time, I don't have any lights on for AL1 AL2 or A-M. OUT is lit up (element is on). Is manual mode when A-M is lit?


Yes, A-M would be lit up if you were in manual mode. Did you auto calibrate the pid with a water test?

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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you referring to auto tuning at this link: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

If so, yes I did do that, but re-reading that paragraph, it doesn't sound like it worked. I was going to do a kettle sour soon and perform an auto tune on the boil kettle pid, so maybe I will just do both again.
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dp Brewing Company



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Drinking: Black Sheep NEIPA, Rye Not Today, Kick of the Irish

Working on: RIS Barrel Aged


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, Auto tune is what I meant. Let's hope that fixes it.
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rcrabb22



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 459
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are not alone. I have consistently seen my PID fire the HLT element when the PID real temp display read it was at the set point. It will hold the HLT temperature at +3 over the set point. I have calibrated with a Thermapen. I have been through auto tune multiple times. I have reset the PID to factory settings and did the auto tune again. I replaced the PID with a new one from Auber. I did the autotune again. I switched the temperature probe between the HLT and the MLT. I have switched the probe HLT wire with both the MLT and BK probe wires. Nothing solves it. I have learned to live with it.
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dp Brewing Company



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 651
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Black Sheep NEIPA, Rye Not Today, Kick of the Irish

Working on: RIS Barrel Aged


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcrabb22 wrote:
You are not alone. I have consistently seen my PID fire the HLT element when the PID real temp display read it was at the set point. It will hold the HLT temperature at +3 over the set point. I have calibrated with a Thermapen. I have been through auto tune multiple times. I have reset the PID to factory settings and did the auto tune again. I replaced the PID with a new one from Auber. I did the autotune again. I switched the temperature probe between the HLT and the MLT. I have switched the probe HLT wire with both the MLT and BK probe wires. Nothing solves it. I have learned to live with it.


rcabb22,
I'm sure you are but I figured I would ask. Are you doing the auto tune with the Mash Tun filled with the correct amount of water in addition to the HLT? I find a lot of people (including me) forget to do it that way.

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure to run the pumps full speed as well.

I remember someone years ago having a similar problem and Auber gave them different P/I/D settings to use that made the problem go away.... I poke around the forum looking for this post (I think it was quite a few years ago) but couldn't find it.

Kal

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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp Brewing Company wrote:
rcrabb22 wrote:
You are not alone. I have consistently seen my PID fire the HLT element when the PID real temp display read it was at the set point. It will hold the HLT temperature at +3 over the set point. I have calibrated with a Thermapen. I have been through auto tune multiple times. I have reset the PID to factory settings and did the auto tune again. I replaced the PID with a new one from Auber. I did the autotune again. I switched the temperature probe between the HLT and the MLT. I have switched the probe HLT wire with both the MLT and BK probe wires. Nothing solves it. I have learned to live with it.


rcabb22,
I'm sure you are but I figured I would ask. Are you doing the auto tune with the Mash Tun filled with the correct amount of water in addition to the HLT? I find a lot of people (including me) forget to do it that way.





When I performed the initial auto tune, I only filled up the HLT and recirculated in there. Should I have also filled up the Mash Tun and recirculated through the HERMS coil?
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dp Brewing Company



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Midwest

Drinking: Black Sheep NEIPA, Rye Not Today, Kick of the Irish

Working on: RIS Barrel Aged


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots.
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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp Brewing Company wrote:
Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots.


OK - so I'm understanding this correctly, basically just follow the water volumes for the brew day, step by step but perform the auto tune while recirculating water in both the HLT and the HERMS coil, without any grain. In actual terms, about 7.47 gallons in the mash tun and the remainder in the HLT?
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dp Brewing Company



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 651
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Black Sheep NEIPA, Rye Not Today, Kick of the Irish

Working on: RIS Barrel Aged


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siestakey wrote:
dp Brewing Company wrote:
Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots.


OK - so I'm understanding this correctly, basically just follow the water volumes for the brew day, step by step but perform the auto tune while recirculating water in both the HLT and the HERMS coil, without any grain. In actual terms, about 7.47 gallons in the mash tun and the remainder in the HLT?



Correct.

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rcrabb22



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 459
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp Brewing Company wrote:
Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots.


Wow! I did not. Six years with this system and I **THOUGHT** I knew how it worked. Embarassed
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dp Brewing Company



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 651
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Black Sheep NEIPA, Rye Not Today, Kick of the Irish

Working on: RIS Barrel Aged


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcrabb22 wrote:
dp Brewing Company wrote:
Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots.


Wow! I did not. Six years with this system and I **THOUGHT** I knew how it worked. Embarassed


haha.....well I hope this helps you fix your issues with the PID.

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rcrabb22



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
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Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know.... as I was setting up my system for an autotune with the MLT recirculation included I started thinking about the issue. The 3 degree overshoot is an annoyance and the PID was designed to avoid that. My bigger issue is after the overshoot the PID maintains the temperature 3 degrees above the set point. The PID continues to fire the heating element as needed to maintain the +3 degree differential. I do not understand why having the MLT recirculating liquid through the HERMS coil would rectify that.
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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcrabb22 wrote:
Ya know.... as I was setting up my system for an autotune with the MLT recirculation included I started thinking about the issue. The 3 degree overshoot is an annoyance and the PID was designed to avoid that. My bigger issue is after the overshoot the PID maintains the temperature 3 degrees above the set point. The PID continues to fire the heating element as needed to maintain the +3 degree differential. I do not understand why having the MLT recirculating liquid through the HERMS coil would rectify that.


I was experiencing the same thing - except 2 degrees high. I am planning on doing the auto tune tonight and brewing this weekend and will report back.
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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did the autotune tonight and then a water test. I still had to set the HLT 2 degrees higher than desired mash temp, but the temperatures were much more stable - i didn't have to flip things off or manually intervene at all, it kept the temperature stable the entire time and no overshooting.
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rcrabb22



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 459
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too went through the autotune again and this is the result:

I = Intergral Time
P = Proportional Constant
D = Derivative Time
t = cycle time

Listed below are the values for the Parameters I,P,D,t the Factory Setting and After Auto tune

I 1000 200

P 500 440

D 120 11

t 2 6


The parameter that changed I didn't expect was t.

According to the Auber manual
Quote:
4.6 Cycle time t
It is the time period (in seconds) that the controller uses to calculate its
output. e.g. When t=2, if the controller decides output should be 10%, the
heater will be on 0.2 second and off 1.8 seconds for every 2 seconds. Smaller
t values result in more precision control. For SSR output, t is set at the
minimum (2 seconds). For relay or contactor output, it should be set longer to
prevent contacts from wearing out too soon. Normally it is set to 20~ 4 0
seconds.


The end result was the same as siestakey reported in his/her post.

I am still confused about the effect recirculation had on the whole process. If I was using a RIMS system instead of HERMS and using the HLT only to heat the water I would expect the PID to NOT overshoot and hold the water at the set point, not +3 above the set point.
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siestakey



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcrabb22 wrote:

I am still confused about the effect recirculation had on the whole process. If I was using a RIMS system instead of HERMS and using the HLT only to heat the water I would expect the PID to NOT overshoot and hold the water at the set point, not +3 above the set point.


I am a little confused as well. I set the temp to 152 and when I got to 142, pumped 7.5 gallons into the MLT and began circulating and once temps got back to 142 began the auto tune. The HLT reached 152 much sooner than the MLT did and much of the auto tune time was spent bringing the MLT up to temp. I have to think that impacted how much the element has to fire to keep things stable.

However, with that said, the water test I performed after was drastically different than my brew days in regards to temperature stability (in a good way). I will check the other numbers you posted when I get home tonight and post them here for comparison.
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