Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ


Off flavor help

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Brewing Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Fal




Joined: 29 Dec 2014
Posts: 70



PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:53 pm    Post subject: Off flavor help Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
I really need some help here. I keep getting a strange taste on the finish off several of my beers. I've read all the descriptions, but I can't pick it out. I'm running an EXACT Kal clone for my brewery. My brew days are all done exactly as Kal recommends except I whirlpool instead of using the hop blocker. For whatever reason, some beers have the off taste and others do not. Here are the ones that tasted fine:


Munich Helles x2 (one did have Diacetyl due to me forgetting to raise the temp at the end)
Schwarzbier
Weizen/Weissbier x2 (recent and 2 years ago)

Stone 'Enjoy By'
Bell's Two Hearted Ale All these could have had the off taste and the higher hops masked it
Electric Hop Candy
The Electric Pale Ale


The ones with a strong off flavor

At least attempts at a Belgian Strong Dark all had it. The recipe and yeast varied.
Doppelbock (just made and is aging, but has it)
Russian Imperial Stout (Bourbon barrel aged) Really strong taste at the end once the hops started to fade.


My theories:

1. For a good while, I used the hopblocker. I don't remember getting this flavor then, but I could be wrong. I usually whirlpool now and dump all the hot/cold break out of the conical before adding yeast. Could the hot/cold break cause this taste?

2. My water profile here sucks, but I am balancing it per several tools. I have never brewed outside the limits of acceptable on any of these tools.

3. Most of the ones that had this flavor were high gravity beers and sat on the yeast longer. Could this be from yeast lysis?

4. Possible exposure to O2 during cold crashing. I cold crash in a upright freezer with my conical inside. The issues there is as the temperature drops, the pressure difference tries to suck the water up into the blow off tube and into the conical. I may have to pull the tube out and let the water drain 2-3 times. I usually let a little air re-establish even pressure and then return the blow off tube to the water. Could this little bit of O2 cause the issues? This doppelbock I'm making now didn't have any off flavor until I cold crashed. Though, I never tasted it in any beer until the end (I always try my hydrometer samples). The belgian beers, I didn't taste it until all the ketones and Isoamyl Acetate aged off. After that, it was plain as day.


Any help or ideas would be great. I'm pulling my hair out here.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: Off flavor help Reply with quote

Fal wrote:
I keep getting a strange taste on the finish off several of my beers. I've read all the descriptions, but I can't pick it out.

Without knowing what you're tasting that's off, it's going to be difficult for anyone to guess what you may be tasting. Anyone near you know beer? They should be able to tell pretty quickly.

There are dozens of different 'flaws' that can surface. Some of the most common and why they happen:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

Note that most of these are not system specific, but process specific, and possibly ingredient specific. I mention this since you said you had an exact clone of my setup. That doesn't mean that if this system is given to 10 people, they'll all produce identical beers. It depends on how they use it. Just like giving identical race cars to 10 people and asking them to race: They'll all produce different lap times. In your case there are likely variables you're not realizing.

Quote:
Could the hot/cold break cause this taste?

Not usually.

Quote:
My water profile here sucks, but I am balancing it per several tools. I have never brewed outside the limits of acceptable on any of these tools.

What is your original water profile? How are you adjusting? To what levels? Are you doing the same for all beers? Beers need different levels of minerals. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment

Quote:
Most of the ones that had this flavor were high gravity beers and sat on the yeast longer. Could this be from yeast lysis?

I think you may mean yeast autolysis? Not really an issue that we need to worry about at the homebrew size. I've left beers on yeast for weeks/months.

Quote:
Possible exposure to O2 during cold crashing. Could this little bit of O2 cause the issues?

Depends on what you're tasting in this off-taste. Usually O2 contact makes a beer go stale, reduces hop brightness, hop flavour, the sense of hop freshness. While O2 contact on any beer before packaging is bad, it's most critical on high ABV hop forward beers to minimize O2 pickup.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like all the darker beers are tasting off, I'm suspecting water
_________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Back to top
mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes trial and error is helpful - have you tried using RO water and adjusting the chemistry from there?

Do your off flavors have any of these common characteristics?

Astringency – bitter harshness, mouth-puckering flavor
Diacetyl – butterscotch flavor
DMS – creamed corn, cooked corn flavor
Medicinal – disinfectant, lozenges
Metallic – iron
Musty – stale
Plastic - Adhesive bandages
Sulfury – burning matches, rotten eggs
Vinegary
Back to top
KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Possible exposure to O2 during cold crashing. I cold crash in a upright freezer with my conical inside. The issues there is as the temperature drops, the pressure difference tries to suck the water up into the blow off tube and into the conical. I may have to pull the tube out and let the water drain 2-3 times. I usually let a little air re-establish even pressure and then return the blow off tube to the water. Could this little bit of O2 cause the issues? This doppelbock I'm making now didn't have any off flavor until I cold crashed. Though, I never tasted it in any beer until the end (I always try my hydrometer samples). The belgian beers, I didn't taste it until all the ketones and Isoamyl Acetate aged off. After that, it was plain as day."

I've read thru a couple of times. Difficult to determine without additional information. Are you tasting a cardboard/stale taste?

Also, consider everything. A few years ago I purchased a Blichmann 14 gallon conical from a homebrewer. He told me for some unknown reason he was getting infected batches and decided to stop brewing. I asked him more than a few questions and based on his answers was unable to determine the source of the infection problems he was encountering.

Getting the Blichmann conical home I take apart everything and I mean everything. I immediately find the source. On the bottom dump valve he used a nylon barb. The nylon barb is green with mold! Throw the d**n thing away! Clean everything twice and only use stainless. I've used the Blichmann conical twice now and haven't had any problems.

Another story. Visited a local brewery. Had a few beers and notice a strange taste in each one. Wife noticed the same off taste. Different styles, but the same off taste. I sat there and thought about what I was tasting. Wet cardboard tells me the brewery has an oxygenation problem somewhere in their process.

Tell us more about the off flavors/tastes you are tasting.
Back to top
Fal




Joined: 29 Dec 2014
Posts: 70



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Re: Off flavor help Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Without knowing what you're tasting that's off, it's going to be difficult for anyone to guess what you may be tasting. Anyone near you know beer? They should be able to tell pretty quickly.

There are dozens of different 'flaws' that can surface. Some of the most common and why they happen:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

Note that most of these are not system specific, but process specific, and possibly ingredient specific. I mention this since you said you had an exact clone of my setup. That doesn't mean that if this system is given to 10 people, they'll all produce identical beers. It depends on how they use it. Just like giving identical race cars to 10 people and asking them to race: They'll all produce different lap times. In your case there are likely variables you're not realizing.
I hear you. The best way I can describe the flavor is a mild stale/bitter taste at the tail end. The first second or two of a taste is pleasant, like the beer is supposed to taste. Then, that flavor comes in: mild stale and bitter. It's not super bad. Most people don't even notice it or just don't mind it. I'm just really picky about beer and it's enough to make me dump a batch.

Quote:
What is your original water profile? How are you adjusting? To what levels? Are you doing the same for all beers? Beers need different levels of minerals. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment
Ca=31.7 Mg=6.7 Na=32.3 Cl=8.9 SO4=11.7

When I adjust, I use EZ water calculator, beersmith, and the brew water calculator on the Brew's Friend website to cross reference and verify. I adjust to your recommended level (or as close as possible).


Quote:
I think you may mean yeast autolysis? Not really an issue that we need to worry about at the homebrew size. I've left beers on yeast for weeks/months.
Exactly what I thought. I'm just grasping at straws at this point. I'm sure it's something simple, but I don't know what.

Quote:
Depends on what you're tasting in this off-taste. Usually O2 contact makes a beer go stale, reduces hop brightness, hop flavour, the sense of hop freshness. While O2 contact on any beer before packaging is bad, it's most critical on high ABV hop forward beers to minimize O2 pickup.

Kal
Of course, but would expect that little dose of O2 to do it to a full 10 gallons? This could be the problem. With the wheat beers and the hoppy beers, I did not cold crashed/added gelatin due to style requirement and need to drink fresh as possible. I literally didn't taste it in this doppelbock until after I started cold crashing it. Those two samples were just 4 days apart. I guess the easiest way to test that is to not cold crash it in the conical and go straight to kegging it on the next couple of batches.

Easier to see a possible problem after typing it all out.
Back to top
mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The ones with a strong off flavor

At least attempts at a Belgian Strong Dark all had it. The recipe and yeast varied.
Doppelbock (just made and is aging, but has it)
Russian Imperial Stout (Bourbon barrel aged) Really strong taste at the end once the hops started to fade."

All of these beers have at least one thing in common - the recipes call for dark grains like Chocolate Malt, Dark Crystals 60 thru 120, Special B, Roasted Barley, Carafa. If you're mashing these, don't. Regardless of mash pH, extended contact with dark and specialty grain husks can speed up tannin extraction (bitter taste). Reduce contact time for these grains by adding them during vorlauf. Mill them separately from the rest of the grist. A stale taste can be the result of oxidation as Kal discusses.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Off flavor help Reply with quote

Fal wrote:
Ca=31.7 Mg=6.7 Na=32.3 Cl=8.9 SO4=11.7

When I adjust, I use EZ water calculator, beersmith, and the brew water calculator on the Brew's Friend website to cross reference and verify. I adjust to your recommended level (or as close as possible).[/quote]
Unless there's something else odd in your water, I'd say you're fine then - it's likely something else.

Quote:
Of course, but would expect that little dose of O2 to do it to a full 10 gallons? This could be the problem. With the wheat beers and the hoppy beers, I did not cold crashed/added gelatin due to style requirement and need to drink fresh as possible. I literally didn't taste it in this doppelbock until after I started cold crashing it. Those two samples were just 4 days apart. I guess the easiest way to test that is to not cold crash it in the conical and go straight to kegging it on the next couple of batches.

Sure - try it out and see what difference it makes. It'll help you pinpoint. Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Fal




Joined: 29 Dec 2014
Posts: 70



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjo2125 wrote:
All of these beers have at least one thing in common - the recipes call for dark grains like Chocolate Malt, Dark Crystals 60 thru 120, Special B, Roasted Barley, Carafa. If you're mashing these, don't. Regardless of mash pH, extended contact with dark and specialty grain husks can speed up tannin extraction (bitter taste). Reduce contact time for these grains by adding them during vorlauf. Mill them separately from the rest of the grist. A stale taste can be the result of oxidation as Kal discusses.
If my next batch going straight to kegs doesn't resolve it, I'll try this.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it’s worth, it’s rarely add dark roasted grains separately (at the end of mash) and haven’t had any issues. My RIS (per the recipe on this site is super smooth).

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it really depends on how much alkalinity is in the water, too much and it can harshen flavors in dark or roasted grains
_________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given his soft water numbers, I would expect very low alkalinity, water without much buffering power.

@Fal: Did you measure your mash pH during any of the darker roast malt beers?

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Fal




Joined: 29 Dec 2014
Posts: 70



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Given his soft water numbers, I would expect very low alkalinity, water without much buffering power.

@Fal: Did you measure your mash pH during any of the darker roast malt beers?

Kal
Yes. I use your recommended 5.2-5.4 at mash temperature. Most of the time with the darker beers, I needed to add very little to no lactic acid for pH to get in that range.
Back to top
jcav




Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Central Florida


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought on the suck back issue during cold crash. After fermentation calms down and the activity slows, you can take off the blow off tube and put on an air lock. This will greatly limit the suck back issue with only a limited amount of sanitizer in the air lock. Also I use R/O water only and add salts and a little lactic acid. I get very clean tasting beers consistently using R/O water. Also you may need to take apart your pump head (on the wort side especially) and clean it all out with an old tooth brush, under running water. I take mine off after every brew day and take out the impeller and scrub the head and all the openings. You will be surprised how much stuff will accumulate there. Also take off the connections to the pump head after a few brew sessions and re-tape with new Teflon tape, as stuff will accumulate on the threads. This will help after you cool your wort down and transfer into the fermenter as you might have bacteria growing on the threads. Just something to think about.

John

_________________
"Perfection is unobtainable, but if you chase perfection you can catch excellence"- Vince Lombardi
Back to top
Fal




Joined: 29 Dec 2014
Posts: 70



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brewed a Weissbier on Saturday, it's already hit terminal gravity. Tastes great and will keg without cold crash in conical. No off flavor, but never had issues with this one anyways. Perfect as usual.

Just an update.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Brewing Techniques All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group