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Sparging into outlet ball valve on boil kettle?

 
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siestakey




Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 49



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject: Sparging into outlet ball valve on boil kettle? Reply with quote


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I came across this setup on HBT (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/boil-kettle-condenser-no-overhead-ventilation-needed.636955/) and I'm thinking about giving it a whirl. Would it be possible to hook up the outlet on the MLT to the outlet of the BK (instead of draping it over the kettle sidewall) so I can keep the lid on and turn the element on before sparging ends to try and cut a little time off brew day? Any downsides anyone sees?
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cmkopp11




Joined: 26 Jan 2018
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Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was my plan. Except I'm using a whirlpool inlet to add water to the boil kettle.
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siestakey




Joined: 10 Mar 2017
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh good call! I totally forgot I have a whirlpool valve to be installed! I'm hoping to be able to brew with the condenser and keep the heat and humidity down. Sounds like this might be a reality.
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LGarby




Joined: 18 May 2014
Posts: 66



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal has mentioned that you can do that no problem but that it is harder to determine the flow into the BK and to match the flow coming from the HLT to the MLT.
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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
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Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

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PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you have a really large kettle, or are sparging very fast, the element can heat much faster than the sparge water can have much effect on the heatup rate. I always start heating as soon as the boil kettel elements are covered. I just set the temperature to 190 so it doesn't start to boil too early. Once I'm near the end of the sparge, I crank the elements up and it's close to boiling by the time I have collected the full volume.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what the boil kettle condenser idea you linked to has to do with with filling the BK from the outlet. Are these not two separate ideas/questions?

I have no comments on the boil kettle condenser but for filling the BK from the outlet, sure, you can do that. It won't save any time however as you can turn on the element as soon as it's covered regardless of how you're filling the kettle (either from the output valve, or through a hose draped across the top). Draping across the top may be inherently more dangerous however, as you'd need to make sure to not have the silicone hose touch the heating element (assuming you're using silicone).

As for why I drape over the side, I do that so that samples can be taken. You can't do that as easily if you go through the output valve as you have to close the valve, disconnect, take a sample, reconnect, open the valve.

More info in the SPARGE step of my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP GUIDE here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step?page=8

Cheers!

Kal

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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LGarby wrote:
Kal has mentioned that you can do that no problem but that it is harder to determine the flow into the BK and to match the flow coming from the HLT to the MLT.

Good point - forgot about that. I set the WORT pump flow rate to get the amount of trickle I want into the BK.

Then I use a binder clip on the MLT sight glass to set the WATER pump rate to match:



To match pump rates watch the clip in the first few minutes of sparging. If the water level moves up or down over these few minutes, adjust the WATER pump valve (only) slightly to compensate. Leave the WORT pump alone as you set that initially. It takes me about 5 minutes to match rates at the beginning of the sparge.

I like not not using an automatically regulated sparging system (such as the Blichmann 'Auto Sparge') as there is less chance of clogs, less parts to clean, etc.

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the whirlpool in to fill up my boil kettle. Seems to work great. I was always worried about the hose slipping out of the boil kettle if I just hung it over the edge. I had that happen to me once back when I had a gravity system. The hose came out of the mash tun cooler and sprayed me with 170 degree water. That wasn't fun and a few choice words were spoken.
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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
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Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

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PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp Brewing Company wrote:
I use the whirlpool in to fill up my boil kettle. Seems to work great. I was always worried about the hose slipping out of the boil kettle if I just hung it over the edge. I had that happen to me once back when I had a gravity system. The hose came out of the mash tun cooler and sprayed me with 170 degree water. That wasn't fun and a few choice words were spoken.


I use a cheap spring clamp to make sure that doesn't happen. https://www.amazon.com/EACHPOLE-Improvement-Projects-Photography-APL1766/dp/B074XHPK85/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1521060854&sr=1-2-spons&keywords=spring+clamp&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=b0f4632ee1c575554b87c53f7ccb2b28

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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp Brewing Company wrote:
I was always worried about the hose slipping out of the boil kettle if I just hung it over the edge. I had that happen to me once back when I had a gravity system.

This concern is one of the reasons I built my hoses the way I did: With 2 parts on each end as it makes the ends about twice as heavy:



Parts:

(A) Stainless steel female quick disconnect 1/2" MPT: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/Stainless-steel-female-quick-disconnect-1-2-MPT

(B) Stainless steel 1/2" barb x 1/2" FPT fitting: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/Stainless-steel-1-2-FPT-x-1-2-barb-fitting

(C) Stainless steel smooth-band worm-drive hose clamp (5/8" to 1-1/16" clamp diameter range): http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/Stainless-steel-smooth-band-worm-drive-hose-clamp-5-8-to-1-1-16-clamp-diameter-range

(D) High temperature food-grade silicone tubing (1/2" ID 7/8" OD): http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/High-temperature-food-grade-silicone-tubing-1-2-ID-3-4-7-8-OD

Instead of just using this:


Link: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/Stainless-Steel-Female-Quick-Disconnect-x-1-2-Barb

Also heavier for filling fermenters.

More info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hoses

Kal

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siestakey




Joined: 10 Mar 2017
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
I'm not sure what the boil kettle condenser idea you linked to has to do with with filling the BK from the outlet. Are these not two separate ideas/questions?


My point here was that I would have the lid on, so I wouldn't be able to drape the hose over the side without steam escaping. I could leave the lid off and fill probably just fine, but once the wort covers the heating element I would want to turn it on to save some time, thus needing to keep the lid on and have the condenser going during the later stages of the fill. This is why I was wondering if I could fill via the outlet - so I can keep the lid on the entire time during the fill.

Sorry it all makes sense upstairs but turns into nonsense when I write it all out. I hope this helps clarify my question.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siestakey wrote:
My point here was that I would have the lid on, so I wouldn't be able to drape the hose over the side without steam escaping.

Ah! Gotcha!

Quote:
This is why I was wondering if I could fill via the outlet - so I can keep the lid on the entire time during the fill.

Yup. You can definitely do that. Really up to you. Good luck!

Kal

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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
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Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

siestakey wrote:
kal wrote:
I'm not sure what the boil kettle condenser idea you linked to has to do with with filling the BK from the outlet. Are these not two separate ideas/questions?


My point here was that I would have the lid on, so I wouldn't be able to drape the hose over the side without steam escaping. I could leave the lid off and fill probably just fine, but once the wort covers the heating element I would want to turn it on to save some time, thus needing to keep the lid on and have the condenser going during the later stages of the fill. This is why I was wondering if I could fill via the outlet - so I can keep the lid on the entire time during the fill.

Sorry it all makes sense upstairs but turns into nonsense when I write it all out. I hope this helps clarify my question.


You CAN do it that way, but not completely necessary. I don't think you will need a condenser during sparge/lauter and the lid won't make a huge difference unless you start boiling before you finish collecting the full volume (which is not at all recommended). As I stated, the elements can generally heat much faster than you can collect the wort if you're doing at least a 60 minute sparge. There is nothing wrong with doing it the way you stated, but it isn't absolutely necessary either. I have almost 200 brew sessions in with this system and the only time I put a lid on the boil kettle is when I'm doing a kettle rest before whirlpool.

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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wscottcross wrote:
I have almost 200 brew sessions in with this system and the only time I put a lid on the boil kettle is when I'm doing a kettle rest before whirlpool.

I use the lid in a similar way (with hop stands for beers that call for one) but another way I use the lid almost every brew is when I'm heating up to boil: I put the lid on, and set the boil PID to 208F and turn on the alarm (also set to 208F). It heats up faster with the lid on, and will get to 208F and hold without boiling. The alarm then goes off. I then take the lid off, go to manual 100% power and watch/stir to avoid boilovers.

Kal

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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 212
Location: CT

Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

Working on: expanding my beer horizons (and my beltline)


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
wscottcross wrote:
I have almost 200 brew sessions in with this system and the only time I put a lid on the boil kettle is when I'm doing a kettle rest before whirlpool.

I use the lid in a similar way (with hop stands for beers that call for one) but another way I use the lid almost every brew is when I'm heating up to boil: I put the lid on, and set the boil PID to 208F and turn on the alarm (also set to 208F). It heats up faster with the lid on, and will get to 208F and hold without boiling. The alarm then goes off. I then take the lid off, go to manual 100% power and watch/stir to avoid boilovers.

Kal


I'm sort of similar to that. I have a 50A setup with 2 boil kettle elements in my 50 gallon kettle and I'll set it for 198F on the one element and 50% power on the other (I swap cables from HLT to Boil2). It holds 198F and ramps up in under 10 minutes when I go to 100% on both elements. To maintain boil with 45 gallons I end up with one element set to 80% and the other set to 76%. The difference being that I don't bother with the lid as the layer of foop seems to hold the heat quite well. I then have to scoop quite a bit to prevent boilover since I'm at 90% capacity of the kettle. Once at a solid rolling boil, it's not a problem.

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siestakey




Joined: 10 Mar 2017
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going for the "lid on" scenario since I don't have an exhaust hood. I was hoping to be able to get away with the condenser and an exhaust fan in the window. The results from that thread seem to be like it's possible to do this. I moved into a new place recently and the brew area is in about the worst possible space for an exhaust hood but the previous owner already had the plumbing run to this area. If the condenser doesn't work and/or the heat build up is an issue I'm just going to bite the bullet and get the hood. I'm just trying to avoid punching holes in the ceiling unless I have to.
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rcrabb22




Joined: 23 Dec 2010
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Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal said:
Quote:
As for why I drape over the side, I do that so that samples can be taken. You can't do that as easily if you go through the output valve as you have to close the valve, disconnect, take a sample, reconnect, open the valve.


I use the BK output valve to fill it during the sparge.

I use a refractometer for pre boil so my samples are gathered using a tablespoon after the first gallon or so for first runnings and then when the sparge is finished for pre boil measurement.

I sparge to meet my pre boil volume so any measurements I do will not determine when I stop the sparge.

I use my hydrometer for post boil O.G determination but I have compared my readings to my refractometer and I haven't found the difference (if any) significant. I am too cheap to buy a digital hydrometer so sighting the SG reading on the glass tube is not as accurate as it could be anyway.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but what you can’t do easily is take gravity readings of the wort coming in at that specific time to see how low it has dropped so that you know when to stop sparging to avoid excess tannin extraction. To do that you need to sample from the hose end, not the mixed kettle wort.

Kal

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