Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ

Stuck Mash
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Using Your Brewery
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:45 am    Post subject: Stuck Mash Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
Started brewing Kal's Tripel yesterday, batch #27 on the current system - I've done it before (batch #16) so I sort of knew what I was getting into.

Other than not being totally prepared ahead of time, things started pretty well. After dough-in, the MLT PID never sounded the alarm for "going through" 131 but I wasn't too worried. After the desired 10 minutes I bumped the HLT up to 150 to ramp up for the beta rest. HLT happily got hotter, but the MLT didn't budge past its 131. Gave the MLT a couple stirs (although past experience has taught me that this is never helpful in the end) and MLT marched on up to 145 and stalled. Cursing didn't help (as expected), it was too early to relax and have a home brew (house rules prevent me from drinking before the wort is in the BK), so I tried more stirring and scraping and hose bleeding looking for bubbles (did manage to spray a bunch of luke warm wort wanna-be all over) and finally wound up with a whole bunch of grain husks in various hoses. I abandoned the effort, cracked open a stout from my last batch (figured I wasn't brewing any more so the house rules no longer applied) and proceeded to read (several times) everything I could find on this forum about "stuck mashes."

Yes, I have an exact Kal-clone setup, including Blichmann kettles and false bottom, center inlet SS March pumps, same grain mill set to 0.049" (always check it before using it), hoses, etc. I was somewhat suspicious while grinding the grain that there was more "flour" than usual so I figured that I just ground too tightly and had a few more beers. Was too bummed to even clean up the brewery - I just shut the door and walked away.

This morning I faced the daunting challenge of cleaning up yesterday's mess. But first I grabbed a handful of the Belgian Pils I used yesterday, along with some Maris Otter and Briess 2 row and compared them. Also ground all three samples and compared the results. The Pils may have bit a tad more powderery than the others but nothing too glaring.

Figuring I couldn't put off clean up any longer I scooped the spent grain out of the MLT and discovered why I had grain husks. The attached picture is after cleaning it up, but the false bottom has got a real serious "dent" in it - I was probably sucking more stuff through it than I was through the rest of the false bottom. No wonder I had grain husks every where in the plumbing.

I've had some problems in the past with bending the false bottom so I'm really, really, really careful about putting it in and making sure that it fits snugly. I'm not really sure what happened here - I would think that it takes a lot to bend something like that and I'm pretty sure that I didn't do that with my mash paddle.

Not necessarily looking for feedback, but if you have anything useful please post. I've already ordered a replacement.



falseBottom.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  84.25 KB
 Viewed:  7907 Time(s)

falseBottom.jpeg


Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10597
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Never seen or heard of that, and I've put massive amounts of grain in some of my batches to make 12% ABV beers. After 10 years I have 3 small dimples in my MLT from the 3 feet on the bottom of my false bottom and that's it.

I'd talk to Blichmann. Maybe yours had some defects in it?

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:

I'd talk to Blichmann. Maybe yours had some defects in it?


I've had less than good experiences with Blichmann in the past, but have posted a question with image on there web site.

W
Back to top
Kazumichan



Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 178
Location: Cincinnati Ohio area

Working on: Belgium golden, Dubbel, and imperial red


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like there was something under your false bottom, and once you pulled a vacuum on it, it just bent. I wouldn't order a replacement. You could hammer it back straight.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10597
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, look at the picture again, it's a bit odd as the part that bent is actually bent UP it seems instead of down? Not sure how that's possible if the grain bed was pushing down. That bent part is the part that rests on the stepped edge.

Did something fall into the mash tun and then you put installed the false bottom maybe? This thing maybe get wedged between the false bottom and the kettle's stepped edge before you brewed?

Here's what a cross section looks like:



Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
701pilot



Joined: 10 May 2016
Posts: 45
Location: northern california

Drinking: Bohemian Pilsner,Caribou Slobber, Munich Helles, Weissbier, Black Bute Porter, RIS, Irish Red Ale

Working on: Milk Chocolate Stout


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks to me like it sat on top of the dip tube and got pushed (pulled) down.
_________________
Mark

I can't change the laws of physics but with enough horse power I can chase it into submission.
Back to top
Sixgun2764



Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Posts: 4
Location: Aurora, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wally,

I'm going to throw out a theory about happened. Your FB might have been damaged while cleaning your MT from your previous brew. I had the same upward bend in my false bottom and it occurred in nearly the same place. I was cleaning my MT on its side and started to pull the false bottom out when it slipped out of my hand. The FB fell straight down on its edge into the sink and struck a triclover cover that was laying in the bottom. That's when I observed the upward bend in my FB. I told myself to hammer that out before my next brew.... but I completely forgot about it until I started to mash on the following brew and had the same issues you did. I managed to get through the brew session and the beer was drinkable. Just a theory but what a coincidence.


Cheers

Sixgun Mug
Back to top
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all for the discussion.

I have contacted Blichmann and they want some more pictures. I'll keep this thread posted with their comments. Guess I ought to take back what I said about their support.

I'm pretty sure (like I'd bet your life, but not mine) that the large bend opposite the dip tube hole was not there when I started. As I tried to explain in the original post, I have had some issues with warping/bending of the false bottom - mostly near the drip tube hole. I have pretty much flattened those out and am extremely careful about insertion and removal of the false bottom.

In addition to the pictured "bend", the false bottom has a pretty significant concave curve to it - as if the one little support bracket in the middle of the bottom isn't as tall as the lip around the kettle, thus not providing any support. Kal mentioned that he has three supports while I only have one in the middle.

As per the thread topic - I did have a pretty severe stuck mash. I would think though that the March pump (809-SS-HS-C) wouldn't suck hard enough to bend the false bottom. It'll be interesting to see what Blichmann support says.

W
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10597
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrumpyWally wrote:
Kal mentioned that he has three supports while I only have one in the middle.

I believe the design may have changed. I bought mine almost 10 years ago.

Quote:
As per the thread topic - I did have a pretty severe stuck mash. I would think though that the March pump (809-SS-HS-C) wouldn't suck hard enough to bend the false bottom.

More pictures are needed as Blichmann mentioned. Based on the single picture, it doesn't make sense to me as we see a single spot along the edge that's bend up. No stuck mash can make the false bottom bend upwards in one spot like that. At least I (and others) can't figure out how that could happen. Maybe the angle of the picture is odd?

Post a bunch more of the false bottom from different angles if you can. (Blichmann wants more pics anyway).

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here goes.....

The first set shot in the brewery were sent to Blichmann - they seemed particularly interested in the kettle and how it was supported. The second set (shot in the kitchen- note that I don't have granite tops in the brewery) are to provide some additional perspective. I have offered to send the bent false bottom to Blichmann should they be interested - no response as yet.

Seems I can only add 10 at a time - here are the first ones....

W



IMG_0396.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  82.14 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0396.JPG



IMG_0395.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  67.79 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0395.JPG



IMG_0394.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  100.45 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0394.JPG



IMG_0393.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  92.67 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0393.JPG



IMG_0392.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  101.62 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0392.JPG



IMG_0391.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  86.81 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0391.JPG



IMG_0390.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  80.42 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0390.JPG



IMG_0389.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  93.36 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0389.JPG



IMG_0388.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  113.37 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0388.JPG



IMG_0387.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  71.29 KB
 Viewed:  7704 Time(s)

IMG_0387.JPG


Back to top
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more pictures...

Suspect the root cause here is my "too tight grind", but if I can prevent someone else from bending their MLT false bottom then it's kind of worth the effort.

W



IMG_0410.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  117.46 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0410.JPG



IMG_0409.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  95.16 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0409.JPG



IMG_0408.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  87.04 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0408.JPG



IMG_0407.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  90.66 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0407.JPG



IMG_0400.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  90.14 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0400.JPG



IMG_0399.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  92.26 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0399.JPG



IMG_0398.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  83.39 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0398.JPG



IMG_0397.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  88.05 KB
 Viewed:  7700 Time(s)

IMG_0397.JPG


Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10597
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the extra pics.

So I think it's a bit easier to see now, but it looks like it did warp as if someone pushed down hard about 4 inches up from the bottom center in this picture:



So basically go to the 6 o'clock position in this picture, start at the very bottom count up three buttons and then take a broom pole or similar and pushed hard between the 2nd and 3rd button. I could see maybe how the outside would fold/buckle upwards like it did (without actually having something stuck between the false bottom and stepped edge). That spot at the 3rd button from the bottom is more or less where the 3 fold lines meet. For that spot to go down, it has to fold up in other spots.

Curious to hear what Blichmann says. I've never seen or heard of anything like this since they first introduced these in the early 2000's.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10597
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrumpyWally wrote:
Suspect the root cause here is my "too tight grind", but if I can prevent someone else from bending their MLT false bottom then it's kind of worth the effort.

How tight? I'd recommend around 0.050" for a recirculating system. If your mill is prone to slipping, quickly check it before each time you mill.

More info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/grain-mill

Like Kazumichan said, I think you could simply hammer this back flat. It'll be slightly weaker and more prone to having it happen again, but if you mill loose (0.050") and open the pump valves slowly over a few mins when you first start to recirc and watch the MLT sight glass level for signs of a poor flow, you'll be able to stop this before it happens again. (If the level drops continuously you have poor flow through the grain bed and need to go slow at first until the grain bed settles itself).

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
take a broom pole or similar and pushed hard between the 2nd and 3rd button. I could see maybe how the outside would fold/buckle upwards like it did


Possible that in my efforts to stir/scrape I pressed like that, but with my plastic mash paddle. This is a lot more plausible than the pump sucking so hard that it bent the false bottom.

Thanks Kal for all your analysis and descriptions.

W
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10597
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, German Pils, Belgian Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Belgian IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be surprised - you'd probably have to press pretty hard, no? And you likely wouldn't be pressing down when stirring to begin with (at least I don't). Who knows what may happen after a few beers however! Wink

Not sure my analysis is really of much use either - just trying to understand how it could have bent up on the outside. It's curious!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
GrumpyWally wrote:
Suspect the root cause here is my "too tight grind", but if I can prevent someone else from bending their MLT false bottom then it's kind of worth the effort.

How tight? I'd recommend around 0.050" for a recirculating system. If your mill is prone to slipping, quickly check it before each time you mill.


Checking the mil is part of my pre-brew checklist. My mill is pretty locked down - hasn't needed adjustments in a while, but I do always check it. Feeler gauge blades 0.025 & 0.024 together go through the gap; adding in the 0.005 blade doesn't.

I will however pay a bit more attention to the "look" of the milled grain and open it up a bit should I not be happy with the results.
Back to top
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Who knows what may happen after a few beers however! Wink



Hence the "house rule" about no beer until the sparge is complete and the sweet wort is in the BK Smile
Back to top
Kazumichan



Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 178
Location: Cincinnati Ohio area

Working on: Belgium golden, Dubbel, and imperial red


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrumpyWally wrote:
kal wrote:
take a broom pole or similar and pushed hard between the 2nd and 3rd button. I could see maybe how the outside would fold/buckle upwards like it did


Possible that in my efforts to stir/scrape I pressed like that, but with my plastic mash paddle. This is a lot more plausible than the pump sucking so hard that it bent the false bottom.

Thanks Kal for all your analysis and descriptions.

W


If your certain that you didn't leave anything under the false bottom and after looking at your other pictures. I think this could be a reasonable explanation.

If you have a 20 gallon kettle, the diameter according to blichmann's website is 14.7". So the square inches of the false bottom is approximately 170 square inches. If your pump only pulled a vacuum of 2.0 psi that would equate to 340 pounds applied to the false bottom. With it only support at the edges and that one tab in the middle your pump could certainly bend the false bottom.

Looking at your newest pictures, it appears in the last one you posted, that your false bottom is bowed downward along with the bent portion. So it would seem that the tab in the middle was not the correct height allowing the false bottom to flex downward. When you got a bad stuck mash, the vacuum created pulled the false bottom all the way down creating the bow. By bending the false bottom in this manner there is effectively extra metal along the outer edge. It has to go somewhere and in your case it bent upwards.
Back to top
Ozarks Mountain Brew



Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 743
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

those false bottoms are stout, very heavy metal, grain or the pump sucking wort down did not do this, sorry thats just impossible
_________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Back to top
GrumpyWally



Joined: 06 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: San Diego, CA

Drinking: California Common, Schwarzbier, Roggenbier, Tripwire Tripel, Dubel, 2 Brown Porters

Working on: Tripwire Tripel, Schwarzbier


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been away for a while, but want to make a final post here....

I did hear from Blichmann again (rather promptly I must add) after I sent them the set of pictures I posted. Here is their response:

Quote:
Thanks for all the photos and info. I think after looking at them it was just a sever stuck mash. The support under the kettle is good, the kettle is not damaged. I have never seen one bend like this.

When you are mashing watch the sight glass on the kettle. It will pull down some as you mash but it drops down all the way you are sticking the mash. This is one way to stop a stuck mash before it gets too far.

I don't need yours back, the photos are fine. You could probably bend it back out and use it.


I did tell them that I had a HERM setup but suspect that they don't really understand it - the sight glass isn't going to go down in a case like this, I suspect that it might even go up a bit (unless of course it too is clogged.)

Regarding their statement about the support being in place and this:

Kazumichan wrote:

Looking at your newest pictures, it appears in the last one you posted, that your false bottom is bowed downward along with the bent portion. So it would seem that the tab in the middle was not the correct height allowing the false bottom to flex downward. When you got a bad stuck mash, the vacuum created pulled the false bottom all the way down creating the bow. By bending the false bottom in this manner there is effectively extra metal along the outer edge. It has to go somewhere and in your case it bent upwards.


I've done some measuring and discovered that support is about 7/16" deep (although not very square or parallel to the plane of the false bottom) and that the step on the Blichmann G2 kettle is closer to 19/32" at the kettle wall, sloping to about 1/2" at the inner edge. I did get a new false bottom and there is a bit of "give" before the support actually touches the bottom of the kettle.

So:
    1. Mash was clearly stuck - there was no circulation, thus creating some amount of vacuum under the false bottom.
    2. False bottom did have some previous damage and was possibly prone to further bending.
    3. False bottom support system doesn't seem to be really well designed.
    4. Just a bit more pushing against it caused it to buckle.


Going forward:
    If the grind looks "too floury", it probably is.
    IMHO, the Blichmann false bottom is way more fragile than it looks and needs to be treated with care.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Using Your Brewery All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Support our site by purchasing through this link. We thank you!

Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group