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Mountain brewer




Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Durango


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:47 am    Post subject: Newby help Reply with quote


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So I currently have a gas fired gravity fed all grain system (15 gal MegaPots) brewing 10gal batches. I brew great beer but as with anything want to see if I can get it even better. I also have solar on my house so brewing on an electric kit would be free! I want to build a RIMS and have a few questions/ ideas and would love some feed back/advice. I don't have 220v in my garage and would really like to make this system portable in the future. I do have 3 different breaker circuits in my garage.

1. I would like to build this system for 110v. so while I am confident that 110v can work for RIMS and HLT, will 110v work well enough to boil 13 gal wort in BK?

2. I plan on using 240V 5500W Immersion Ripple Foldback Brewing Water Tubular Heater Elements in HLT and BK, and something similar in RIMS tube.

3. I plan on 2 riptide pumps and therminator plate chiller

4. I would like to wire all this into one control box but have two 110v AC inputs. Is there an easy way to wire so i can put amps on two different circuits and maybe upgrade system to 220 later?

5. My current brew stand is on heavy duty casters and I plan on placing mash tun and BK on same level with HLT under to streamline and cut down overall footprint.


Thats probably enough for now. Any and all advice appreciated......
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi and welcome to the forum!

Mountain brewer wrote:
will 110v work well enough to boil 13 gal wort in BK?

You can get up to 1800W out of a 120V circuit as power = voltage x current (120 volts x 15 amps) since you have 120V circuits and 240V circuits in your house.

For 13 gallons I'd recommend a 4500W or 5500W element for a good boil. If you assume you can get the max out of two 120V circuits that's 3600W (2 x 1800W). The boil probably wouldn't be as vigorous I'd prefer but I'll technically work.

Keep in mind too that whatever sort of panel you build will also need power to operate things, including your pumps which will eat up about 100W each.

Quote:
2. I plan on using 240V 5500W Immersion Ripple Foldback Brewing Water Tubular Heater Elements in HLT and BK, and something similar in RIMS tube.

A 240V element running at 120V will output 1/4 the power, so only 1375W. With two you'd get 2750W total. I wouldn't want to boil 13 gallons with that, but again, it'll technically 'work', but your heat times will be slow and your boil anaemic. You could get around some of this by insulating the boil kettle and possibly using a chimney of some sort to reduce heat loss.


Good luck!

Kal

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Mountain brewer




Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Durango


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure I am excited about an anemic boil so maybe I will just bite the bullet and build the 220v system.

Any reason this PID wouldn't work? Trying to keep cost to a minumum..... http://amzn.to/2HNIpqf
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use any PID you like, as long as it meets the requirements of the system you design. Only you can judge how to balance price vs. performance/accuracy vs. safety vs. convenience vs. support. You’ll find that there’s quite a range available. PIDs can range in price from $10 to over $500. It really depends on your needs.

If price is an overriding priority then something like what you linked to can certainly work but keep in mind that it's absolutely the lowest price you can go and the quality/support/performance/etc will reflect that. For example, K-type temp probes are not as accurate as the RTD ones I recommend (same as the ones we sell), Fotek SSRs are plagued with reliability issues as there are many fake ones sold out of China to keep prices low so the lowest priced packages will sometimes use fakes to compete on pricing, and MyPIN PIDs are known to have less features/are harder to program (partially because the manuals are poorly translated Chinese or just non-existent in most cases - you can try and find a manual for that PID on their website is here: http://www.mypinchina.com/ - I didn't have any luck myself).

Cheers,
Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:15 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Tungsten




Joined: 06 Dec 2014
Posts: 318
Location: Buffalo, NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is your circuit in your garage rated to? I know you said 120v but many garages in the US are 20a circuits and not 15. If you have a couple different circuits out there, you could in theory use 2 x 2000W elements.

Of course, I would certainly just bite the bullet and get 240v wired up if it were me.
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully understand the need / desire to be as fugal as possible, I know because I have $1000 of dollars of used (useless) equipment left over from all of my frugal attempts. Think hard about this decision. Paying once is best in the long run.

Most (if not all) houses have 230 Volt service to the electrical panel. It is not too hard (nor too expensive) to add a 230 Volt breaker. I added my own breaker and added a 240 V plug next to the electrical panel, then bought a long RV power cord to run to my TEB panel.

One of my many frugal attempts was a RIMS; I had constant problems. The biggest risk is low or no flow due to a stuck mash. It will happen eventually and when it does you will scorch the wort and possible the heating element. HERMS is a great thing.

Just my random thoughts.

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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JMD887




Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 120
Location: Akron, Ohio

Drinking: Two Hearted Ale

Working on: American Red IPA


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_H wrote:


Most (if not all) houses have 230 Volt service to the electrical panel. It is not too hard (nor too expensive) to add a 230 Volt breaker. I added my own breaker and added a 240 V plug next to the electrical panel, then bought a long RV power cord to run to my TEB panel.



genus! This seems perfect for me right now! I've been thinking about a way to power my panel in an alternative location since its looking like I'll be finished with my equipment sooner than my full brewery built. Where did you find this RV power cord?


Mug cheers John
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazon, where else ? LOL

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HRYGAQ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=a9cd13112d84d22199b0e2c9382f5a8f

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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JMD887




Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 120
Location: Akron, Ohio

Drinking: Two Hearted Ale

Working on: American Red IPA


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_H wrote:
Amazon, where else ? LOL

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HRYGAQ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=a9cd13112d84d22199b0e2c9382f5a8f


Should have guessed that!
Thanks for sharing.
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Mountain brewer




Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Durango


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so I have SOME electrical know how (self installed a 6KW solar system that passed inspection and has functioned beautifully.) couple of questions

1. I have 3x20amp circuits for outlets in my garage. 2 of these terminate into the same 4 gang box. Can use the existing 12/2 romex to "create" the 30amp 240v circuit?

2. Is this relay appropriate? YUCO POWER RELAY CONTACT CAPACITY 50A 250VAC / 28VDC 2NO/2NC, CONTACT FORM DPDT 120VDC COIL WITH PLASTIC COVER CLAPPER RELAY. I will need four 1 for power in, 3 for heater elements.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mountain brewer wrote:
1. I have 3x20amp circuits for outlets in my garage. 2 of these terminate into the same 4 gang box. Can use the existing 12/2 romex to "create" the 30amp 240v circuit?

No. One reason would be because the max current flow through any of the wires is only 20 amps. You need wire rated to 30 amps to have a 30amp circuit.

Quote:
2. Is this relay appropriate? YUCO POWER RELAY CONTACT CAPACITY 50A 250VAC / 28VDC 2NO/2NC, CONTACT FORM DPDT 120VDC COIL WITH PLASTIC COVER CLAPPER RELAY. I will need four 1 for power in, 3 for heater elements.

Appropriate for what? Depends on what you're trying to do, how you want to use them. You mention 3 heater elements so you're not following any of the designs on here. Post your schematic and we can assist.

Kal

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Mountain brewer




Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Durango


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a rough wiring diagram I'm thinking of............anything wrong with it?


RIMS WIRING.docx
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  RIMS WIRING.docx
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

Some quick thoughts:

- Conceptually it appears to use lots of the ideas from my design, so I'd suggest going through my step by step wiring diagrams on the site here to make sure you haven't missed anything. Start with part 1 here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1
Actual wiring starts in part 2 here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2
- It appears that all 3 elements can run at once as the use individual switches. If that's case, the POWER IN relay needs 3x the power capacity of the other individual relays. (You asked about the relay in your previous question - you can't buy 4 of the same thing, unless all 4 are of the larger amperage capacity which would be fine, but overly expensive for no reason).
- For safety reasons the ground wires from the heating element and pump outlets should all be individual home runs instead of daisy chained. See the ground wiring page for details: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=8
- Consider adding an alarm light/buzzer. It's easy to do and doesn't add much to cost since PIDs have alarming built in. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=12
- Consider adding a safe start interlock, also for safety. It's very inexpensive to do. About $20 in parts. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-safe-start-interlock

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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View user's photo album (21 photos)
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to mention:

- Last but not least, make sure you want RIMS, as you mentioned wanting to keep cost at a minimum (RIMS tends to be more expensive if you're starting from scratch). See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28112

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Mountain brewer




Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Durango


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Hi!

Some quick thoughts:

- Conceptually it appears to use lots of the ideas from my design, so I'd suggest going through my step by step wiring diagrams on the site here to make sure you haven't missed anything. Start with part 1 here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1
Actual wiring starts in part 2 here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2
- It appears that all 3 elements can run at once as the use individual switches. If that's case, the POWER IN relay needs 3x the power capacity of the other individual relays. (You asked about the relay in your previous question - you can't buy 4 of the same thing, unless all 4 are of the larger amperage capacity which would be fine, but overly expensive for no reason).
- For safety reasons the ground wires from the heating element and pump outlets should all be individual home runs instead of daisy chained. See the ground wiring page for details: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=8
- Consider adding an alarm light/buzzer. It's easy to do and doesn't add much to cost since PIDs have alarming built in. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=12
- Consider adding a safe start interlock, also for safety. It's very inexpensive to do. About $20 in parts. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-safe-start-interlock

Good luck!

Kal


ok so help me understand. Pretty set on RIMS. I will be able to have all three running(not likely though) HLT and RIMS so I can fly sparge at same time and then bk on its own. what size contactors/coils would I need to accomplish this?

I will add the safety interlock

I will do individual ground wires as you show in the pictures. Thank you so much for the help!
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mountain brewer wrote:
ok so help me understand. Pretty set on RIMS. I will be able to have all three running(not likely though) HLT and RIMS so I can fly sparge at same time and then bk on its own.

WHile everyone brews differently, I do HERMS and purposely turn off my HLT element when fly sparging.

The sparge water starts at 168F and slowly cools throughout the 60-90 minute sparging process. By the end of the sparge the mash will be about 20 degrees cooler. This is completely intentional and beneficial. A lower temperature near the end of the sparge helps minimize tannin extraction from the grain husks when it is most likely to occur (the mash has less sugar and higher pH). And by the end of sparging the mash has very little sugar left so the drop in heat does not affect the flow.

You should read my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP to understand how I do HERMS: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Many (most?) do HERMS in a similar way. The benefit is that you only need one element running once: Either the BK or the HLT. There are no compromises here. You can (and many do) make excellent award winning beers this way. Anything is possible from complex step mashes to single infusion mashes, you name it. There's no beer you can't brew. There are even large commercial breweries like Brooklyn Brewery using this identical setup for test batches before they brew on their 50 bbl setup:



Another thing to keep in mind is that if you want to run an element when fly sparging to keep the HLT water at (say) 168F, keep in mind that fly sparging is purposely done very slowly, so you'll need to figure out a different way to maintain heat in the HLT without overheating it. A temp probe in the side would work but you'd probably need a way to stir to avoid overheating.

You'll also need to incorporate some sort of float/cutoff switches to turn off the element once the water level drops below the heating element otherwise you'll fry the heating element. This is another benefit of my brewing process where the HLT element is turned off at the start of sparging: No chance of a fried element, less parts to install/buy/maintain, etc.

Quote:
what size contactors/coils would I need to accomplish this?

I don't know what you have planned so I can't answer that. The POWER IN relay/contactor has to be able to support whatever amperage the other element relays combined support. So if you have 3 element relays through which you push through 20A each and all 3 can be on at once, the POWER IN contactor needs to be 60A.

Cheers,

Kal

_________________
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Mountain brewer




Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Durango


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spending some time web searching for the power contactors and here is what I think is good

power in
https://www.amazon.com/GUWANJI-JQX-62F-1Z-AC110V-Power-Relay/dp/B01I9I0XQK/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1520126035&sr=8-20&keywords=jqx-62&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=8e1cd44121dbc89c6b84338f81590ea3

heating elements
https://www.ebay.com/itm/120VAC-Relay-DPDT-30A-Magnecraft-32886-RL/222859085940?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49923%26meid%3Dcabc3a89d4384999980f1484b64590ce%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162816720409%26itm%3D222859085940&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&campid=5336652980&toolid=20008&mkevt=1

Or if you have specific recommendations/links any help appreciated! This site is awesome btw!

Pictures of build to be coming in couple weeks when everything arrives
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mentioned previously that you had three 120V / 20A circuits in the garage and you wanted to use that / save costs. Your design now requires a single 240V / 60A circuit.

Before you start looking at the specific parts you need, I would hone the design to make sure it fits the process you want to use. Then make sure what you do is even possible with the garage circuitry you have in place and/or that you are willing to upgrade the circuitry to meet your needs.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Mountain brewer




Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Durango


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SO I got permission for the "General" to release more funds for a 240v system. I have this thought in mind.

For my RIMS tube I have ordered a Camco 02932/02933240v 5500W element but am thinking to keep total amps down and make scorching even less a possibility i could run it at 110v? It seems in all my research that this is a good way to run it. I would then run my HLT and BK at 240 (could even consider running HLT at 110v). Would this help to bring my amps down to 30? I have a friend who just is finishing a remodel and might have a 30amp gfci breaker he can give me. so to sum it up I would have

2xCamco 02962/02963 5500W 240V Screw-In Lime Life Ripple Water Heater Element - Ultra Low Watt Density running at 240v for bk and HLT

1x Camco 02932/02933 240v 5500W running at 110v for RIMS tube

2x bilchmann riptide pumps

hoping to put all this on 30amp gfci double pole breaker
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can run any 240V element at 120V. The power output will be 1/4.

I highly recommend stainless base heating elements like the ones we sell here as they will not rust: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/stainless-steel-heating-elements
The ones you ordered will rust unless you use a sacrificial anode in the same way that those elements are used in hot water tanks. More info on anodes: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/sacrificial-magnesium-anode

You can't run two 5500W elements at 5500W on a 30A circuit.

Current = Power / voltage.

So far you have 2 x 5500W running at 240V which draws 45.8 amps.
Then the one 5500W running at 25% power on 120V will add even more (11.46 amps)
Then include a couple of pumps for more current draw. Some pumps will pull more than others.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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