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I need help with 240v gfci tripping
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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: I need help with 240v gfci tripping Reply with quote


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I recently installed a 240v gfci breaker for my pre built 240v electric control panel and a 4500w ULWD heating element. Ever since installing the gfci breaker, it keeps tripping for some reason.

When the breaker was installed, I put about 5 gallons of water in my pot to test out the breaker in PID mode. I was able to run the water to 160f with my pump on without tripping my breaker, I tried boil next and boiling worked fine.

Today when I added 8+ gallons of water, it started heating up to about 130f and the breaker tripped. I switched the breaker back on and it ran for about 30 secs before tripping again. After resetting the breaker several times it would constantly trip after just turning the heating element on. I triple checked that the neutral wire that was coming from the 240v outlet was attached to the gfci breaker and the white jumper was attached the to the neutral bus. I really don't know where to go from there and any help would be appreciated.

I'm including pictures of my 240v gfci breaker (didn't think of taking a picture while it was installed...) and also the inside of my control panel.

Panel inside-
https://i.imgur.com/2Ztxpl0.jpg

Panel side-
https://i.imgur.com/2VFdx0a.jpg

240v gfci breaker-
https://i.imgur.com/zTqM9Ov.jpg
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum!

That's curious. If your problem was that you're tripping the GFCI breaker when the water reaches a specific temperature then likely something, somewhere is heating up, expanding, and shorting out. I've heard of this happening in rare occasions with heating elements. But you were able to get to boil the first time but not anymore?

See if you can get something to happen repeatedly the same way as that'll help you troubleshoot.

Good luck!

Kal

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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah when we first installed the the brand new gfci breaker I was able to use PID mode, run the pump and heat to 160f for a good 10 mins, then immediately after I tried boiling and was able to boil but only boiled for 1 min, thinking it was working as intended. When I went to brew today, It tripped right around 130f, and soon after kept tripping faster and faster whether or not I was in PID mode or manual mode or pump running or no pump. Although it's very unsafe... I was able to to run everything and boil with a non gfci breaker... but for obvious reasons don't ever plan on using that for brewing.

Thanks I'll try a little more trouble shooting and try to see if it has something to do with the element.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally a GFCI breaker won’t trip unless it’s required. It’s doing its job and protecting you. I would not under any circumstances bypass it. Good luck!

Kal

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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I decided to look closer into the element and I unscrewed the housing and found water in there. I guess that would probably trip the breaker? I included pictures again. you'll have to excuse my dirty/gross element...

https://imgur.com/9heRrJn

https://imgur.com/qM4I0wc

https://imgur.com/iiD5jFO
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any water in there would certainly not be good.

Kal

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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, so I'm on my way to solving this issue and I'm wondering if Food grade silicone adhesive/sealant like (Momentive RTV108 One Part Silicone Sealant) would ok to apply on the outside of the element (in contact with the water/wort) Or should it only be applied inside the element housing?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not use silicone purposely in contact with wort.
If you have leaking, I would recommend fix the problem at the source.

Good luck!

Kal

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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my plan, I'm hopping this will stop the leaks.

https://imgur.com/ytJbNiu


https://imgur.com/fenxtu9
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your element mounts are leaking, I would suggest contacting the manufacturer for a solution. They should not leak and it shouldn't be up to you to find a solution, assuming you are using them as intended. Does the manufacturer provide any instructions?

Kal

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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the response I got from the company

Quote:
"The elements should be just hand tight, too tight and the gaskets will get shoved out of the way, resulting in water getting in. Too loose will cause the same. I don't recommend any sort of permanent sealer like silicon or such as it basically does more damage then a real solution. Most often the solution is to make sure your element gasket inside hasn't pushed out or broken out (too tight can cut the gasket)."


After disassembling and reassembling, I still get leaking. I'm about ready to cut my losses and buy one of your pre-assembled.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, any solution that recommends "not too tight" and "not too loose" is the type I was wanting to avoid when I designed my setup. These designs compress an o-ring and it's really finicky like they mention above. It's not just the initial tightening, but even if you hit it by accident. That can over-compress the o-ring causing it to bulge/leak.

The trick is using the right sized washer (or an integrated washer) to avoid having the o-ring bulge at all, allowing you to tighten it down until it's like it's welded to the kettle. This is what I do with my solution, same as Blichmann fittings. You can read more about it here in the section "Going Weldless" near the bottom of the page: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/kettles-overview

I wanted something that you could tighten down until firmly fastened, and then never worry about again, the same way Blichmann does with all their kettle fittings (sight glass, ball valve, thermometer). You wouldn't even know that my fittings (Blichmann or my heating elements) are weldless. You can crank on them all you want and they won't budge, bulge, or leak.

If you're interested in one of our pre-assembled (or DIY) heating element kits, they're available here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-element-kits

A pic:



Good luck!

Kal

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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be able to use with a 2" TC adapter without any leaks?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. As long as the non-TC side is a 1" NPS fitting. See the section called "My kettle has a Tri-Clover (sometimes called Tri-Clamp) fitting for an element. How do I attach the heating element kit?" here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-element-kits

Kal

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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this one will work?
https://www.brewershardware.com/2-Tri-Clover-X-1-NPS-Fitting-TC20F10NPSL.html
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks right to me!

Kal

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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry to bump a old thread but I recently ordered both the preassembled heating element kit and the 2" TC adapter. I took the nut, washer, and o ring off and when I try to screw on the TC adapter, it stops after 1 to 1 1/2 threads /turns. This leaves the element not tight to the box. I'm kind of confused why this is happening? any ideas?

Edit - I have also tried threading the 2 TC adapter onto my old element, which it threads fine. Could it be something to do with element threads I received on the new one?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What TC adapter exactly? Where did you buy it? Are you sure it's 1" NPS?

Which element is it? Purchased here?

Edit: I saw your edit: If the element was purchased here, email us at sales@TheElectricBrewery.com and we'll arrange to get you a replacement element. Sounds like the threading may be off?

Kal

_________________
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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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lemonjelly




Joined: 09 Dec 2017
Posts: 16



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
What TC adapter exactly? Where did you buy it? Are you sure it's 1" NPS?

Which element is it? Purchased here?

Edit: I saw your edit: If the element was purchased here, email us at sales@TheElectricBrewery.com and we'll arrange to get you a replacement element. Sounds like the threading may be off?

Kal


I was thinking about it though and wondering why would the nut that's included with your preassembled heating element kit still thread on and off seemingly fine? I'll send you an email. Thanks
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically there a three standard thread types for straight pipe threads (NPS):

NPSM - National Straight Pipe Mechanical - An undersized and tight fitting
NPSH - National Straight Pipe Hose - Slightly looser than M
NPSL - Nation Straight Pipe Loose - looser than H

Camco (who make these elements for us) check all batches of heating elements with a go/no-go thread checker to NPSM standards, due to most water heaters being machined to a NPSH standard. This ensures that 99% of all elements will fit into a water heater regardless of manufacturer.

The locknuts we supply with our heating elements kits are NPSL, so very loose. Since the seal is coming from the o-ring compression and not the locknut, this is not an issue.

My guess is that some of the adapters people use are also machined to a NPSM standard (or not even thread checked if they are being built in China, which most of the cheap ones are). Due to this, there is a lot less room for error on whether they fit or not.

Got your email - we'll figure this out for you and get it working. Sorry for the troubles!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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