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Dough in- water first vs. malt first (underletting)

 
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Water first
81%
 81%  [ 13 ]
Malt first
18%
 18%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 16

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HopSteady




Joined: 09 Jan 2016
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Dough in- water first vs. malt first (underletting) Reply with quote


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I have been thinking about the pro's and con's of mashing in via water first (as described in brew day step by step) vs. malt first (adding dry malt to MLT and then adding strike water).

Water first

+ get your mash water temp perfect, temperature in system is largely stabilized, cooling effect of adding cold malts is minimal and mash temp reached again quickly
+ allows you to measure strike water both via level in MLT as well as volume lost in HLT
- time spent to stir out dough balls
- extra bucket form milled grains required and to be cleaned

Malt first

+ allows you to underlet (= pumping strike water underneath false bottom and filling from bottom up) which eliminates risk of dough balls, reduces amount of stirring required
+ allows you to mill grains directly into empty MLT, one less bucket required and one less item to clean
- strike water volume can only be measured via water lost in HLT (pretty much a non-issue)
- requires you to compensate for the thermal mass of the cold MLT and so the strike water needs to be heated above mash temp (by around 4c/7f). A certain portion of the wort will momentarily come into contact with water above the intended mash temp as the temps stabilise. Not essential but makes sense in the interest of time.

Obviously both methods work fine, and the con's listed on either side are not really a big deal. I am just trying to decide on a method which I will stick to. I am leaning towards malt first because simply because I like to mill my grains direct into the MLT as it's a bucket less to clean.

Am I missing anything?
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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 664
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

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PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be afraid to add malt first because of spots stuck to the wall that you don't see. Like when making a protein shake. You add milk before the powder. Otherwise you get spots that are stuck to the shaker at the bottom.
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silverspoons




Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 555
Location: Webster NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't see how it would reduce doe balls or stirring.. if anything introducing heat from underneath might congeal malt faster..

Silverspoons
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I go water first (per my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP instructions) and have never gotten any dough balls. In fact, I don't even think I need to stir. I only do so to mix in the water adjustment salts a bit better (and any lactic acid if I need some).

HopSteady wrote:
I am leaning towards malt first because simply because I like to mill my grains direct into the MLT as it's a bucket less to clean.

Another "for what it's worth": Wink I don't clean the grain bucket I mill into. After the grain's in the mash tun I just give it a couple of hard taps on the bottom to get out as much as I can. It's always got some grain dust in it, but there's no harm in that.

Kal

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Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it works, I underlet every brew day. what I do is grind my grain, add it to the mash tun while heating 20 gallons of water up to 162F then pump the water under the mash "I have a bottom port" it saturates the grain evenly and no stirring is necessary at all but I do anyway to even out the temperature it will drop when mixed to roughly 152 then I add cold water to the hlt to cover the coils or until that reaches the same target temperature as the mash tun, then I start the recirculation, it all works perfectly
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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure it works, but I'm old-school.
I prefer Kals method in the step-by-step, adding water first.
2 reasons:
Transferring strike water to the mash tun and recirculating until it hits 7 degrees above mash temp allows for the 7 degree (YMMV) drop when adding the grains. Mash temp is spot on from the start.
Adding lactic (or soda depending on your recipe) requires spot on strike volume to hit your Ph. I wouldn't want to simply rely on the HLT drop in volume to measure this.
Dough balls? bah! I only stir to circulate the lactic.
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Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adding acid doesn't even play into this scenario since I wait to recirculate for at least 5 or 10 minutes to let the grain lower the ph before testing with my ph meter then I get a more accurate measurement
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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
adding acid doesn't even play into this scenario since I wait to recirculate for at least 5 or 10 minutes to let the grain lower the ph before testing with my ph meter then I get a more accurate measurement


Not sure what you mean by the above.
Conversion mostly takes place in the first 10 minutes (5 minutes in a recirculating system).
Ph reading at that time will give you an accurate measurement, but mainly to determine if you're calculations are correct. The mash Ph ship has essentially sailed at that point.
Adding lactic is an artistry of extremely small measurement. + -- 1ML produces wide results when exact strike volume is not attainable. My point, is that exact strike water measurement is easier obtained by adding the water first, then the grains. Calculating the lactic addition based on accurate strike water volume will give you a better shot at hitting your target Ph.
The opposite (adding water to the grains) is not as accurate a method of determining strike volume other than estimating the water depletion of the HLT.
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HopSteady




Joined: 09 Jan 2016
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp Brewing Company wrote:
I would be afraid to add malt first because of spots stuck to the wall that you don't see


silverspoons wrote:
.. if anything introducing heat from underneath might congeal malt faster.


I have done over 5 batches both ways and have never not hit 95% mash conversion efficiency... so both methods fully saturate and convert the grains, the underletting method just does this with less stirring.
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HopSteady




Joined: 09 Jan 2016
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SD Endorf wrote:
Calculating the lactic addition based on accurate strike water volume will give you a better shot at hitting your target Ph.
The opposite (adding water to the grains) is not as accurate a method of determining strike volume other than estimating the water depletion of the HLT.


I hear what you say about the need for accurate strike water volume measurement. How I do this is by having marked 1 Liter increments on the HLT fill level gauge so the depletion can be read very accurately. I did this by manually adding 1L increments and etching lines, opposed to simply dividing up the existing factory markers, since these are inaccurate due to the presence of the HLT coil, heating elements, etc. This is no less accurate than reading fill level on the water filled MLT.

Also, do you add acid to your mash water only? What I have been doing is to treat the total ~20gal of water in the HLT (with salts and acid) and then use this for the mash as well as the sparge. Not sure why you would want your sparge water to be different than your mash water? Kal's brewday step by step does not go into detail here. Kal, how do you do this?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I calculate mash and boil salt additions using EZWaterCalculator.
I then fill the HLT and treat the 20 gallons for chloramine.
I then transfer part of that (the strike water) to the MLT, add the grain & mash salts, stir for a couple of minutes, measure pH, add lactic if required.
Before sparging I add lactic to my HLT to bring the pH down to 5.6 - 5.8.
While boiling I add the boil salts.

See these links for all the gory, exact, step by step details:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Kal

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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HopSteady wrote:

....do you add acid to your mash water only? What I have been doing is to treat the total ~20gal of water in the HLT (with salts and acid) and then use this for the mash as well as the sparge. Not sure why you would want your sparge water to be different than your mash water? Kal's brewday step by step does not go into detail here. Kal, how do you do this?


I brew 100% RO.
Entire 20 G in the HLT is treated with salts to match recipe profile.
Lactic (or Soda) is only added to the mash.
No need to acidify sparge with RO.

Adding acid up front to the entire HLT will give you varying results. If acidifying the sparge is required, typically a much smaller amount of acid is required to accomplish this. I would recommend adding the required amount of lactic to the mash, and a separate amount to the remaining sparge water in the HLT based on whatever calculator you're using. (I prefer Bru n' water)
Kal may have a different approach.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What SD Endorf does makes perfect sense. There's more than one way to do things but his logic is sound. In the mash we add acid (if required) to target a specific mash pH. For the sparge water you're targeting a different pH (and there's no grain). Treating them separately lets you target what's right instead of just treating all the water at once and hoping that one (or both) places line up with what you're trying to do. Some salts also do not dissolve well in only water.

I don't use calculators for acid additions as often they do not work well. Instead, I measure the mash pH after mixing the grain and various salts with the water to see if any additional acid is required. In my case usually not unless it's a 100% pils or 2-row malt bill and I've added very little salts to begin with. In the case of the HLT water, I no longer measure as I know exactly how much 88% lactic to add to my water to get the pH down to 5.6 - 5.8.

Kal

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HopSteady




Joined: 09 Jan 2016
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, I need to read up on why different acid (pH) levels in mash vs sparge water is desirable.

This is only possible for water first mashing and so one more point in favor of this method.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HopSteady wrote:
Thanks guys, I need to read up on why different acid (pH) levels in mash vs sparge water is desirable.

In the mash we want to target a specific pH for optimal starch to sugar conversion. There is no 'one' correct mash pH as the various enzymes work best at different pH levels when converting the grain starches to sugars. While a wide range (from 4.5 to 5.6) is acceptable for mashing, most brewers will try and stay somewhere in the 5.2 to 5.4 range (when measured at mash temperature). A higher pH (more basic) produces a sweeter beer due to a less fermentable wort and more body. A lower pH (more acidic) produces a drier beer with thinner body due to a more fermentable wort. It also produces better extraction efficiency, better hot break formation, lighter colour, and is less prone to form haze.

For the sparge water you simply want to ensure that the pH of the water isn't too high as that can extract excess tannins from the grain husks. While all beer will have some tannins, with most beers you want to try and minimize the amount. Tannins have a tongue-drying astringent taste like over steeped tea or strong red wine. You want the sparge water pH to be below 6.0 (when measured at mash temperature), preferably in the 5.6 to 5.8 range.

You could go lower and treat all the water at once, but that will probably just waste acid and if the pH is too low, you may end up with a beer that's too tart.

I know I mentioned it before, but if you want to read about about it I cover the why's and how's here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Wink

Cheers!

Kal

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rcrabb22




Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 462
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SD Endorf wrote:
Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
adding acid doesn't even play into this scenario since I wait to recirculate for at least 5 or 10 minutes to let the grain lower the ph before testing with my ph meter then I get a more accurate measurement


Not sure what you mean by the above.
Conversion mostly takes place in the first 10 minutes (5 minutes in a recirculating system).
Ph reading at that time will give you an accurate measurement, but mainly to determine if you're calculations are correct. The mash Ph ship has essentially sailed at that point.
Adding lactic is an artistry of extremely small measurement. + -- 1ML produces wide results when exact strike volume is not attainable. My point, is that exact strike water measurement is easier obtained by adding the water first, then the grains. Calculating the lactic addition based on accurate strike water volume will give you a better shot at hitting your target Ph.
The opposite (adding water to the grains) is not as accurate a method of determining strike volume other than estimating the water depletion of the HLT.


Everything I have read says it takes 10 - 15 min for mash PH to stabilize after dough in. Also, I have read the PH esitmates given by spreadsheet tools cannot be trusted. If conversion is mostly done after the first 5-10 minutes I have 3 questions:

1) how can one accurately measure PH after dough in?
2) What does "mostly done" mean, 70, 80, 90%?
3) Why continue mash for an hour?
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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcrabb22 wrote:
Everything I have read says it takes 10 - 15 min for mash PH to stabilize after dough in. Also, I have read the PH esitmates given by spreadsheet tools cannot be trusted. If conversion is mostly done after the first 5-10 minutes I have 3 questions:
The target Ph calculated in Bru 'n Water has consistently matched my Ph for years, assuming I did everything correctly with the proper quantities. Other tools - not so much.
1) how can one accurately measure PH after dough in?
By taking a sample from the mash, cooling to room temperature and reading with a quality Ph meter that doesn't drift. I use a Milwaukee MW102
2) What does "mostly done" mean, 70, 80, 90%?
Mostly, meaning well over 50% but depends on the grain bill. Pale malt can reach 100% conversion in 20-30 minutes.
3) Why continue mash for an hour?
Most brewers use 60 minutes because it's a consistent parameter, which allows you to play with the other components of mash - temp, water ratio, and crush
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