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OVER PITCHING
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blazinlow86




Joined: 15 Jan 2017
Posts: 104
Location: vancouver bc


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject: OVER PITCHING Reply with quote


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Curious what others opinions are on over pitching yeast by considerable amounts. i usually make a yeast starter as per beer smiths recommendations and then go a little bit higher. so most 12 gallon ales get a single vial of yeast into a 1 liter starter which i decant and then pitch into a 5 liter starter and i always aerate with pure 02 prior to pitching including all starter steps and use a malstrom stirplate . i was reading a article about a home brewer that turned professional and he said he believed one big thing that made his pro brews better was pitching much more yeast than at home. so i wanted to experiment with over pitching my next brew using wlp 090 san diego super yeast. i did my normal starter process but this time i stepped it up a 3rd time in another 5 litre starter for a total of 3 steps total of 11 litres. after letting it settle overnight in the fridge i now have a solid 400ml of yeast in my flask which appears to be appx 1553 billion cells. im now reconsidering attempting this as its double the required amount of 750. any opinons? im sure its probably a waste of materials and time but im more concerned other possible issues.


Last edited by blazinlow86 on Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use all of it and let us know if you see a difference. Very Happy
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends on the beer.

I do tend to pitch pretty heavy on light, clean tasting lagers as I find it results in a cleaner fermentation.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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blazinlow86




Joined: 15 Jan 2017
Posts: 104
Location: vancouver bc


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input all. i ended up pitching the whole decanted starter of wlp 090 into 12 gallons of wort. aerataed with pure 02 as usual and set the ferm chamber to 18.6 degrees. within 8 hours i had very aggressive fermentation thru the blow off tubes and it took my 1.049sg down to 1.011 in 3 days. i also kegged a sierra nevada pale ale clone by ozarks using the same starter volume with similar results a week ago and i think its the cleanest tasting wlp001 brew to date and is only 3 weeks old.
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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Similar question on this topic...
I made a yeast starter in my 2000ML flask using some WLP001 that had been in the Fridge for a month or more...
it frothed up pretty good on the stir plate, maybe not as much as I expected but it was the first time making one and I followed Kal's suggestions. weather went south on us here in Kansas so I had to put the starter in the Fridge for a week. I cooked up a Partial Mash Extract kit of Soulless Hop Pale Ale on February 8th getting an OG of 1.064 pitched the whole starter after I let it get to room temps and put the brew bucket in my Danby to ferment at 64 deg. on the 15th I checked it, there was still quite an amount of Krasen and the Hydrometer reading was only at 1.050 hum? waited some more on the 15th checked again reading is at 1.044 still has Krasen on top which I expected to have resided. I am supposed to dry hop it for 3-5 days with 3oz of Citra but I am wondering now if I need to pitch a pack of dry yeast and do some more waiting? Anyone have any ideas, support or wise cracks for a guy that has brewed a bunch of extract kits over the years and is cleaning out getting ready to jump to All Grain but these last two batches I have done have my confidence a little shaken make me feel like a Green Horn!

Thanks,
tkdjim
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
on the 15th I checked it, there was still quite an amount of Krasen and the Hydrometer reading was only at 1.050 hum? waited some more on the 15th checked again reading is at 1.044

One of those dates is wrong I take it?

I'd wait. The beer's likely still actively fermenting.

Kal

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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

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PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL yes I checked it on the 13th then again on the 15th sorry about that!
should I wait to dry hop until it isn't active then?
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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just hadn't had any beer ferment that slowly is why i got confused with what was going on.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
should I wait to dry hop until it isn't active then?

You can dry hop during active fermentation or after. Up to you. Duration can also vary. You mentioned the recipe says to "dry hop it for 3-5 days with 3oz of Citra"

So anything will work. It depends on what you're trying to get out of this beer / what you're trying to do. Some beers like NEIPAs I dry hop during active fermentation to promote biotransformation with certain yeasts, others I wait until fermentation is done and the beer's been racked (or not). There's no right or wrong answer. I would ask the recipe author for recommendations if you can or just do whatever you like. It'll all turn out as good beer, just possibly slightly different depending on what path you choose. That's one of the fun parts of making beer - experimenting! Wink

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal...
This is my first time at Dry Hopping, I read there are different approaches to do it. My kit was from More beer. I don't know if this is supposed to be a clone of a brew I have never had so I am not much concerned of it hitting spot on other than some good tasting brew with some hoppiness . So far it tastes pretty good at this point.

I have it in a SS Brew Bucket so I am wondering if it would work okay to forgo racking it to a secondary and dry hop it on top of the cake, what approach would you use/suggest?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can certainly dry hop in the fermenter for the last few days before you keg. I often do that. Cheers!

Kal

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
Similar question on this topic...
I made a yeast starter in my 2000ML flask using some WLP001 that had been in the Fridge for a month or more...
it frothed up pretty good on the stir plate, maybe not as much as I expected but it was the first time making one and I followed Kal's suggestions. weather went south on us here in Kansas so I had to put the starter in the Fridge for a week. I cooked up a Partial Mash Extract kit of Soulless Hop Pale Ale on February 8th getting an OG of 1.064 pitched the whole starter after I let it get to room temps and put the brew bucket in my Danby to ferment at 64 deg. on the 15th I checked it, there was still quite an amount of Krasen and the Hydrometer reading was only at 1.050 hum? waited some more on the 15th checked again reading is at 1.044 still has Krasen on top which I expected to have resided. I am supposed to dry hop it for 3-5 days with 3oz of Citra but I am wondering now if I need to pitch a pack of dry yeast and do some more waiting? Anyone have any ideas, support or wise cracks for a guy that has brewed a bunch of extract kits over the years and is cleaning out getting ready to jump to All Grain but these last two batches I have done have my confidence a little shaken make me feel like a Green Horn!
Thanks,
tkdjim

I have a few thoughts on why your fermentation isn't progressing as you expect.

1.) Your yeast starter had to keep cold in the fridge for a week. There's nothing wrong with this, but that will make the yeast dormant, and it might be helpful to make another starter to get it going again a few days before brew day. That will help with the lag period that yeast experiences when it gets thrown in wort. It's good that you let it warm up to room temp gradually.

2.) WLP001 has an ideal fermentation temp of 68'-72'F (per White Labs), so fermenting at 64'F will give you a slower than expected fermentation. Also, it's possible that some of the yeast simply is inactive because it's outside its favorite temperature range. Both of these factors will slow fermentation down.

3.) I too would wait to dry hop unless you're doing a NEIPA for all the reasons Kal listed. *Usually* you wait until fermentation is complete or nearly complete to dry hop, but obviously there are a hundred different ways to ferment and hop. Part of the point of dry hopping is to add and retain all that wonderful aroma. Active fermentation carries some of that aroma away as CO2 is released.

I would try raising your fermentation temperature to 70'. If that doesn't kick start fermentation then I would try the dry yeast too and then wait until it ferments out to add the Citra. Also, make sure you're using a hydrometer and not a refractometer to measure the gravity of the beer once fermentation starts as the presence of alcohol will significantly impact your readings (this is from experience).

Keep going! You'll love all-grain. Good luck!
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: OVER PITCHING Reply with quote

blazinlow86 wrote:
Curious what others opinions are on over pitching yeast by considerable amounts.

Theoretically you're *supposed* to pitch about .75 to 1 million cells per mL per degree Plato (OG) for ales and 1.5 million/ mL/ 'P for lagers. (If you divide the last two numbers in SG by 4 you get 'P - so 1.060 = 15'P). I think it would take a fair amount of side by side comparison of different beers to actually see if there was a difference in slightly varying pitch rates. At double the suggested pitch rate, you'd probably run into some of these issues, but I don't have any first hand experience to say either way.

I remembered some of these, but this is straight off Wyeast's website (https://wyeastlab.com/pitch-rates).

A low pitch rate can lead to:
Excess levels of diacetyl
Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
Increase in ester formation
Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
High terminal gravities
Stuck fermentations
Increased risk of infection


High pitch rates can lead to:
Very low ester production
Very fast fermentations
Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
Autolysis (Yeasty/ meaty/ brothy flavors due to lysing of cells)
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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Interesting Dialog McGruber! I have my brew bucket in a Danby Beverage Cooler and it only goes up to 64 degrees so perhaps I need to put a light bulb in there to attempt to achieve 70 ? It is coming on 2 weeks in there so I am wondering if that will get me anything though at this point? Good info definitely for the next batch. I am planing on pulling another sample this afternoon and seeing what the hydrometer tells me of where it's at.

The next batch will be a Kolsch I haven't read up on that style yet so I am not sure where it likes in fermenting temps or yeast type.
Thanks!
tkdjim
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info there McGruber. For what it's worth, WLP001/WY1056/US05 works well at lower temperatures too, you just need to make sure to pitch enough. I tend to use it at 64F (fermenting wort temp, not ambient temp). I have a batch of Janet's Brown Ale fermenting right now at that temp. You can even go below 60F without much concern but some say it tends to throw a bit of peach flavour if you go that low (which may or may not be something you want).

If your cooler's set to 64F, during the most active fermentation the wort is probably a couple of degrees warmer.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
The next batch will be a Kolsch I haven't read up on that style yet so I am not sure where it likes in fermenting temps or yeast type.

Give my recipe a read as I cover both subjects: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26737
(Yeast is critical on that one)

Kal

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
For what it's worth, WLP001/WY1056/US05 works well at lower temperatures too, you just need to make sure to pitch enough.

kal wrote:
If your cooler's set to 64F, during the most active fermentation the wort is probably a couple of degrees warmer.
Kal

I agree with both of these Kal. I was just trying to think of why fermentation wasn't progressing as expected. Since it's a partial mash, it made me think that it wasn't a hot side issue and more likely a yeast issue. Those yeasties are not super happy for some reason. Since a starter was made, the thought is that there was plenty of yeast present - at least when it was first made.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
Very Interesting Dialog McGruber! I have my brew bucket in a Danby Beverage Cooler and it only goes up to 64 degrees so perhaps I need to put a light bulb in there to attempt to achieve 70 ? It is coming on 2 weeks in there so I am wondering if that will get me anything though at this point? Good info definitely for the next batch. I am planing on pulling another sample this afternoon and seeing what the hydrometer tells me of where it's at.
tkdjim

Like Kal said, I wouldn't worry about adding a heat source. Yeast will work outside of it's temperature ranges, but the change may or may not alter flavor and/or fermentation time (as compared to the "correct" temp). After the most active fermentation stage where it's better to have temp lower, if you have a way to put your fermenter just out at normal room temp, that would also work. My basement stays 68'F pretty much all the time. I have noticed during the first few days of vigorous fermentation it can be 85'F inside the fermenter if I'm not actively cooling it. Leaving it out at room temp would be just fine for the tail end of primary and all of secondary fermentation.

As far as doing your next batches - just re-read how to do a yeast starter to make sure you did it correctly and "try" to use it fresh (within 72 hours of making it). Since you've had sluggish fermentation, it's possible that the yeast was bad, the starter wasn't made correctly the first time, or somehow leaving it in the fridge for a week made unhappy yeast. You said the yeast was in the fridge for a month, but not when the manufacturing date was - maybe it was old or got hot somehow before you bought it. I always add yeast nutrient and FermCap to my yeast starter, and if you're not adding those to your boil too, I recommend it.

I make a starter and then put it in the fridge the night before brew day to let the yeast settle to the bottom. In the morning of brew day I take it out of the fridge and let it warm to room temp while I brew. I then pour off the bulk of the residual starter "beer" and leave just a little bit in the flask to mix yeast back into solution. I didn't see what your batch size is, but pitching 2000 mL of starter "wort" into 5 gallons could give you some undesired flavors.

Do whatever works for you. These are just "ideal" thoughts and ideas to help make your next batches more fun and less worry. There's not a wrong way to do any of this. Except not cleaning enough - that would be a "wrong way".

Good luck!
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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, I am learning a ton of things from this Forum and I appreciate your helping think outside my little box! LOL
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a problem! I think the important thing to keep in mind is that while there are some basic similarities and concepts that are possible true across all yeasts, they're living creatures and some behave differently than others, some have different likes/dislikes and tolerances than others. So what's true for one strain doesn't necessarily hold true for others. Then throw into the mix that you may want certain characteristics to shine in one beer but not another, and you end up with different ways to treat what may be the same yeast.

Good luck!

Kal

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