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Stymingersfink basement build
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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Stymingersfink basement build Reply with quote


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So, I am in the process of designing my own house which I will start building as soon as I finish the plans and get the permit. I have been brewing on and off for more than 20 years, but always in the kitchen and mostly extract. I am going to up my game in the new house. It is going to include a full electric brewery in the basement. I really like the look of Kal's whole setup, and am inspired to do something along the same lines. I started to ask some questions about it on his build thread and it eventually needed to become its own subject. So here it is. This thread begins with my original posts to Kal's build thread.

Since I am still in the design phase, and I am doing the building myself, it will be a while before I can actually show progress toward the brewery, but I will post it as it comes.


Wow Kal, that is some amazing design and work. I am about to pull the trigger on a new house and I am putting something similar in my new basement. Do you mind if I pick your brain a little bit about design via a PM?


Last edited by Stymingersfink on Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stymingersfink wrote:
Wow Kal, that is some amazing design and work. I am about to pull the trigger on a new house and I am putting something similar in my new basement. Do you mind if I pick your brain a little bit about design via a PM?

Certainly! Though I'd recommend you pick away in this build thread - no need to keep things private. It lets everyone discuss/comment too.

Welcome to the forum!

Kal

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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good to me, though a lot of my questions are related to space layout. I don't want to bore or derail the thread. Is that cool?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all related so I don't see how that would be derailing. Cheers!

Kal

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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal
So I am building a new house and have the basement as a blank canvas. My desired elements are:
Brewery
Home Theatre
Full Bath
Mechanical Rm
Storage
Exercise area.

The interior space is 34'x27'.

One of the things I am struggling with is how big do I need to make the theatre? I would like it to seat 6-8 people and be a dedicated space.

I also don't have a very good idea of how big I need to make the brewery. I will be switching from partial extract to all grain brewing and am going to jump in with both feet. I will be putting in an all electric system very similar to yours and would like the ability to brew 15 g batches. I am open to any and all ideas.


Last edited by Stymingersfink on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stymingersfink wrote:
One of the things I am struggling with is how big do I need to make the theatre? I would like it to seat 6-8 people and be a dedicated space.

Who's designing it for you or are you doing it yourself? Do you already have equipment and seating? What sort of screen size are you envisioning? Tiered seating? 2 rows? Do you want the speakers hidden (Behind the scren) or exposed? For sound do you want 5.1? 7.1? 11? Dolby Atmos? There are a lot of questions that need answering first.

I also run a Home Theater website and we feature a series of DIY ebooks and videos if you're interested.

This is the main one: http://www.curtpalme.com/TheHomeTheaterBook.shtm
With it you get a free set of interviews with industry experts including yours truly on home theater calibration (I had forgotten I did that!). Wink
If you want to get serious about acoustics: http://www.curtpalme.com/PracticalHomeTheaterAcoustics.shtm
If you want to get serious about sound isolation (keeping the HT noise out of the rest of the house): http://www.curtpalme.com/PracticalHomeTheaterSoundIsolation.shtm

Note that isolation and acoustics are not the same thing.

Quote:
I also don't have a very good idea of how big I need to make the brewery. I will be switching from partial extract to all grain brewing and am going to jump in with both feet. I will be putting in an all electric system very similar to yours and would like the ability to brew 15 g batches. I am open to any and all ideas.

Size of the brewing room has more to do with your pipeline, how many kegs you want to have, how many grain you want to store.

My brewery's roughly 13x11' but most of that space is taken up by 16-20 bins of grain storage, a freezer for hops, a keezer that holds about 10 kegs, a conditioning fridge that holds 6 kegs, a long set of two tables (120" long) that hold various things and have two fermenting fridges underneath.

The actual brew table is only 24"x60" and the sink is 2' square. Give this article a read: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-stand

Someone who doesn't want to stockpile grain and hops has a kegerator or serves in a different room (or bottles) will barely need much room at all. My original brewery was in a small storage room. It was only for wort creation (and wine storage).

Also take a look at all the pics here in this thread and also in the gallery: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/gallery

So you really don't need a TON of room for the hot side (wort creation). It really depends on how you want to have in there that's also brew related.

For both brewing and HT figure out what you want and the room sizes will fall out naturally. For HT there are some acoustical reasons to pick certain sizes too. The links above will get into this.
Good luck!

Kal

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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Who's designing it for you or are you doing it yourself? Do you already have equipment and seating? What sort of screen size are you envisioning? Tiered seating? 2 rows? Do you want the speakers hidden (Behind the scren) or exposed? For sound do you want 5.1? 7.1? 11? Dolby Atmos? There are a lot of questions that need answering first.


I am designing and building the project myself. I don't have the equipment yet and will likely be limited on budget when it finally gets to that point. I will start out small, but want to build the space in a manner that can evolve as I am able to upgrade. The existing space was planned for a 110" screen I believe and I planned on tiered seating. I am not sure about speakers or sound yet. I will take the course you listed and then get back with any questions.

Quote:
Size of the brewing room has more to do with your pipeline, how many kegs you want to have, how many grain you want to store.


I don't plan on storing a lot of grain in the brewery, I will have other places to use for storage. I would like room to have several conical's as well as a decent work table with adequate room all around it. Whether or not I have a keezer and keg storage depends on its proximity to the serving bar which would exist in a separate space like yours. If possible I would put them next to each other and make the brewery big enough to accommodate the refrigeration. I like the corner workspace that you have and am inclined to do something similar.

Thanks for the reply Kal, I have a lot of things to figure out about the space, but the time to finalize the plan is closing in. So, at the very least I need to come up with the rough layout. I plan on putting a floor drain in the brewery so mostly I need to determine where the plumbing will go.
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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, thanks for the heads up on the home theater resources. Do you think I could seat 6 people and use a 100" (16:9 Horizontal dimension) comfortably in a room that is 9' H x 12.5' W x 17' L?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stymingersfink wrote:
I will start out small, but want to build the space in a manner that can evolve as I am able to upgrade.

What kind of upgrades are you envisioning?

Stymingersfink wrote:
Kal, thanks for the heads up on the home theater resources. Do you think I could seat 6 people and use a 100" (16:9 Horizontal dimension) comfortably in a room that is 9' H x 12.5' W x 17' L?

While it will depend on what you want to do exactly, I see a possible issue with is the 17'L. That's not very deep if you want two rows and have reclining seats. Best I can say is that it'll "maybe" work if you go with somewhat average viewing angles (how close you put the two rows of seats relative to screen width), put the speakers in the room (not behind the screen as that eats a lot of depth), and possibly do wall-away seating (seats that can be against a back wall and recline as they move forward instead of back).

My HT area is 12' wide in the screen alcove (the width that holds the screen and front speakers) and about 4' wider if you count the hallway/walking area between the HT and lounge, 22' deep which leaves room to walk behind the back row of seats, and 8.5' high. I have 2 rows of 3 seats and my seats are less wide than average.

The 12.5' W may also be an issue for you if you want 3 seats wide and want a reasonable walking path available on both sides. You want at least 3' if not 4' in "hallways" to make them comfortable. That doesn't leave much room for the seats themselves. MY 3 seats are only 93" wide which as mentioned above is fairly narrow. I only have 26" between the seats and the right wall which is somewhat tight but you can still walk around it. If I had a wall on the left side too that 26" on both sides would make the room feel a bit cramped.

Note that I don't have any side columns for speakers. If you want/have those, that'll eat into the room too. There's many design factors that need to be worked out / decided upon before you know how much room you actually need.

Design it all first before picking the room size. You don't want to do this backwards. Don't build anything or pick a room size until *after* you've worked from the inside out and know how much room you need. You're lucky in that no walls are up yet so you have the time to work on the layout now to make sure things will fit correctly. You're obviously limited by the overall size of the space, but you have the luxury now of being able to design and give more or less space to the various areas (brewery vs HT vs other places) depending on what make sense. It sounds like you want to finalize room sizes now but you haven't designed yet - I would caution against doing that.

Good luck!

Kal

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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal wrote:
What kind of upgrades are you envisioning?


I will probably have to start out more affordable components and upgrade them as I can. I will try to put in the best speakers that I can to start and hopefully by using good speakers and having a well designed room, it will sound good.

What are the implications of having an open HT area like you have? How does it effect the audio and visual watching experience? If I were able to open up the walls, I would have more design latitude.

Kal wrote:
Design it all first before picking the room size. You don't want to do this backwards. Don't build anything or pick a room size until *after* you've worked from the inside out and know how much room you need. It sounds like you want to finalize room sizes now but you haven't designed yet - I would caution against doing that.


I sort of have to do it backwards. I am sharing the space with my wife who has her own set of wants and needs. So, I am at about the maximum room size that I'm going to get, and I will have to start making adjustments to things like the number of seats in order to make it work within that amount of space.

Thank you for your help and advice.
Sty
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Kazumichan



Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Cincinnati Ohio area

Working on: Belgium golden, Dubbel, and imperial red


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is going to be in your Mechanical room? Hot water heater, furnace? If so when you have to replace said items and have to go through that bathroom, it looks like there is not much room to get things through there.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a good point. Make sure you have enough clearance for things like hot water tanks and so forth. I know in my case the door at the end of the DVD storage hallway has a door that's bigger than the others as it leads to the mech room.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stymingersfink wrote:
Kal wrote:
What kind of upgrades are you envisioning?


I will probably have to start out more affordable components and upgrade them as I can. I will try to put in the best speakers that I can to start and hopefully by using good speakers and having a well designed room, it will sound good.

Keep in mind that you plan on more speakers (ie: going to 5.1 to 7.1 / 11.1 / Dolby Atmos) you'll have to design that in from the start to make sure you have the wiring in place too. Speaker positioning also will come into play.

If you plan on side/rear columns for the surrounds, adding more speakers may not be obvious after the walls are up unless you plan that ahead to make it possible/simple without drywall/wiring rework.

Quote:
What are the implications of having an open HT area like you have? How does it effect the audio and visual watching experience? If I were able to open up the walls, I would have more design latitude.

Less control on the acoustics when it's open (including positioning of speakers as doing 7.1 or more is nearly impossible as you're missing a side wall), you need more power to hit a certain volume level, more work if you want to do sound isolation as now you're treating more than just a dedicated HT room. The reverse is also true: You have more sound leak into the HT from other places in the house. On the video side there's no difference as long as you can keep light out of the HT. Some people prefer a very balanced look to an HT. Really up to you. If performance is the utmost goal, the room should be dedicated. Not everyone cares.

Stymingersfink wrote:
I sort of have to do it backwards. I am sharing the space with my wife who has her own set of wants and needs. So, I am at about the maximum room size that I'm going to get, and I will have to start making adjustments to things like the number of seats in order to make it work within that amount of space.

Fair enough. There are always compromises. Wink

Kal

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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazumichan wrote:
What is going to be in your Mechanical room? Hot water heater, furnace? If so when you have to replace said items and have to go through that bathroom, it looks like there is not much room to get things through there.


There will be a water heater, an ejection pump, and 2 HRV units. Thanks for looking out for me, I have thought about this issue, but with that design it was the best possible option. Both doors are 3' wide and would fit the equipment. Worst case scenario would be that I would have to pull the toilet to widen the walkway. Not awesome, but not the end of the world either. But, it may not be an issue now. I have some design revisions in the works that put the bathroom in a different area. The house I live in now is completely without closets. When they built it in 1921 I guess people didn't have as much sh*t as we do now. So one of the things that I am hyper-concerned about is having some storage space. I was however, able to rework the design in the garage to add a storage mezzanine. Now I feel a little better about minimizing the basement storage and using that as living space.

Kal wrote:
Keep in mind that you plan on more speakers (ie: going to 5.1 to 7.1 / 11.1 / Dolby Atmos) you'll have to design that in from the start to make sure you have the wiring in place too. Speaker positioning also will come into play.


My plan is to run wire to every location I could possibly need it and then leave it in the wall until I use it. I think its better to spend a little extra on wire now and possibly not use it, than spend a lot on drywall and wall finishes later. With a little more space freedom, I am going through and planning out speaker locations and seating position based on the 100" horizontal screen width. I am thinking about eliminating the back wall of the HT and leaving it open as a sitting area. I would build columns where needed to house the speakers. So, to figure out viewing distance, would you recommend 30 or 40 degrees as the max? Do i measure that from the head position of the viewer and if so should it be in the sitting or the reclined position? Or is that getting to technical about it and ballpark is acceptable?

As far as isolation is concerned, I am not too worried. The exterior walls as well as the floor above are all concrete with 2-4 inches of foam on the inside. The door at the base of the stairs is a bit of distance from the theater and will be a heavy solid core door. I am sure you will be able to hear it at the top of the stairs, but I think it will be faint. With your setup, home much sound leakage do you get up your stairwell?
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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazumichan, I just took a look at the plan I posted. The mechanical room door is mislabeled as 2668 it is actually 3068.
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Kazumichan



Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Cincinnati Ohio area

Working on: Belgium golden, Dubbel, and imperial red


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stymingersfink wrote:
Kazumichan, I just took a look at the plan I posted. The mechanical room door is mislabeled as 2668 it is actually 3068.


I hadn't noticed that, I was referring to that the doors don't line up and the angled path around the sink and toilet looked tight. But if you are good with pulling a toilet when needed, it shouldn't much matter.
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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazumichan wrote:
I hadn't noticed that, I was referring to that the doors don't line up and the angled path around the sink and toilet looked tight. But if you are good with pulling a toilet when needed, it shouldn't much matter.


Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Thumbs Up
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stymingersfink wrote:
So, to figure out viewing distance, would you recommend 30 or 40 degrees as the max?

That's a personal preference. Just like some people like to sit near the front of the movie theater, others like to sit in the back.
My first row of seats is 40 degrees (eyes about 11 feet from an 8 foot wide screen.

Quote:
Do i measure that from the head position of the viewer and if so should it be in the sitting or the reclined position?

Measure from the eye to the screen. With some seating the distance will change when you recline (not so much with wall-away seating).

Quote:
Or is that getting to technical about it and ballpark is acceptable?

SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) recommends a minimum viewing angle of 30 degrees.
THX recommends 40 degrees.

Many calculators available - here's one: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

Quote:
As far as isolation is concerned, I am not too worried. The exterior walls as well as the floor above are all concrete with 2-4 inches of foam on the inside. The door at the base of the stairs is a bit of distance from the theater and will be a heavy solid core door. I am sure you will be able to hear it at the top of the stairs, but I think it will be faint. With your setup, home much sound leakage do you get up your stairwell?

Concrete floors will really help. We don't have that, but we weren't concerned about sound leakage out. At our previous house we had a basement open to the main floor (no door) and we were primarily concerned with the kids (young at the time) sleeping 2 floors up. but with their doors closed we could play as loud as we wanted to. In my current setup we have a sliding door at the bottom of the stairs that helps even more. You can't crank the HT to reference level and then be able to watch TV quietly in the family room directly above it, but we knew that going in.

Kal

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Stymingersfink



Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, after some intense redesign of the basement and engineering a storage area over the garage, I have come up with a new plan for the brewery and the HT. I was able to layout the speakers in the HT according to Dolby's 9.2 layout guide. I also was able to increase the room dimensions to 13'4"x22' and gain adequate walking space around the seats. I am putting a single riser at the back. I haven't decided if I should build columns for the speakers or wall mount them. Any suggestions?

For the brewery, I really like the design and layout of yours, Kal. I hope its alright that I'm mirroring your design. I will have a dedicated fermentation area and grain storage under the stairs. All in all, I'm liking it. Any thoughts to fine tune the design are welcome and encouraged.



Last edited by Stymingersfink on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9933
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a higher resolution picture of the new layout available? It's hard to read the numbers on the one you've posted.

P.S. Since this is turning into a build thread, I figured it best to split this off into your own subject ...

Kal

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