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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:17 pm Post subject: HLT Elements firing when higher than target temp |
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For some reason the HLT Elements are firing when I have my set temp to 154° but the actual temp reading on PID is 155°-156°. It never gets down to 154°. I have ran the auto tune function and adjusted the temp difference using thermoworks chef alarm thermometer.
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Panel is a 50 amp Kit from The Electric Brewery
20 gallon kettles
2 elements in HLT and 2 in BK
20 gallons of water in HLT
PID in Auto Mode
PID setup / calibration completed
Auto Tuned completed at 150F
Set Value (SV) is 154F
Process Value (PV) is 155-156F (does not ever drop to 154)
Thermoworks Chef Alarm is reading same as the PV (154.9F+ at all times)
So I'm guessing there's a setting I'm missing or changed by accident. Changed the FILT on the PID to 5, could this be affecting the PID to want to fire up before getting to 154F? I can adjust the temp to be 2 degrees lower than desired for my recipes but it would be nice to set it and forget it. Anyone else have this issue?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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I've done the Auto Tune method 4 times now for the SV to be at 154 and it's not getting the results. In fact the last time it increased the temp on the PV to 157-158 degrees. Pump is circulating while Auto Tuning.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I have the water pump running 100%. Here's a picture of my system.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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The temp probe on HLT and BK are on the back of the kettles. I also auto tuned the BK to see if it did the same but it held temp just fine. As for the pumps, I was hoping it wouldn't be an issue and I could save shelf area for who knows what but am finding to have priming issues. They'll move soon.
I might try and reset the PID and start it over. If that doesn't help then I guess put a plug in the temp probe and change location but since the BK acts fine not sure on that.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hard to say what the issue is as your design is different. Do you have any pictures of the inside of the HLT? You may have mixing issues / dead spots / stratification in the HLT. To avoid this I would put the HLT probe on output valve per my design on this website (same as the MLT).
The BK is different from the HLT (no recirculation, no HERMS coil, etc) so the flow would be different. (I.e. putting the probe in the wall in the BK and having it read accurately doesn't mean it'll work in all kettles in the wall).
Good luck!
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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While testing the BK I did recirculate using the whirlpool spout. It may be because it's lower on the kettle to move the water around the elements and the temp probe does not get a hotspot.
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Having a hotspot near the temp probe should make the Chef Alarm thermometer read differently though and they are near identical.
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a quick video of what's happening. You'll notice the temperature on neither the Chef Alarm or the PID comes down to 154.
https://youtu.be/9i1KXXhaZ3I
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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One odd thing that I noticed in the video:
At the start of the video the Chef Alarm temp is 155.5 and the PID is 155.
By the end of the video the Chef Alarm has dropped to 155.3 but the PID has climbed to 156.
Not sure this means anything, but the fact that they seem to be going in opposite directions may mean you're not measuring the same place. That said, I'm not sure it matters.
The other odd thing I noticed is the pitch/sound of the pump changed when the heating element(s) kicked in, likely because your house voltage dropped from 245V to 232V but that still seems odd. My voltage drops too but the pump pitch never changes. I wonder if the pump flow is being restricted when the element is on?
Thinking about this some more, hotspots shouldn't cause concern with temperature control as long as everything is stable. You may not get even temperatures but if everything's stable, then the temperature should be able to hold temp. Instability comes when things are changing differently than what the system expects, like hotspots moving, flow changing, and so on.
I'm not sure what to recommend here as I've never tried with the temperature probe in the HLT kettle wall. I installed mine (and recommend in the build instructions) that it be placed in a Tee on the kettle output as it's the best place to ensure consistency and ensure accuracy, and possibly avoid temperature control issues. Putting it there may solve your problem. At the very least it would help prove if the issue is placement vs. something else going on. You could leave the HLT probe in place and move the MLT Tee to the HLT temporarily and swap the temp probes at the panel to see.
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'll swap the tee in the next day or two and see if it helps, but still bothers me that the PV never reaches the SV before it fires the elements. Just seems odd. I know the kettle does not drop that fast in temp, maybe 1-2 degree in 5 mins of recirculation and no lid. Worst case scenario I just set the temp to a higher amount than needed and watch the temp on MLT to match.
Not sure if there's a way to reset the PID to factory but I'll try that to if I can find out how. Manual doesn't say how, at least I haven't seen it yet.
Thanks for all the help Kal! Really appreciate the help you give everyone here.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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AwakenedBrewer wrote: | As for the pumps, I was hoping it wouldn't be an issue and I could save shelf area for who knows what but am finding to have priming issues. They'll move soon.
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For what it's worth, I have my pumps at about the same location and don't have any priming issues (same pump head too). I just open the valve from my kettle a few seconds before I want to transfer or recirculate and the tubing fills up with liquid and the air pushes out on its own.
My only concern with your pumps is the inlet fitting used and how much drop you have in the line. I prefer to have my pump inlet be the lowest point of line. That helps the air go up away from the pump rather than towards the pump. Just my 2 cents.
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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I manually changed the "P", "I", and "D" value from what the auto tuning had them at, insanely high numbers, to match close to default. Default (at least on my MLT PID) for others is P=500, I=1000, and D=120. It still wasn't getting low enough. I changed the values even lower to P=350, I=275, and D=100. I now have the elements firing a little sooner and shorter in duration. Worked ok for a few cycles but then still shot up to 159 degrees.
Time to swap PID's and Temp probe temporally with the BK and test it. Test done... no change really.
I now added the tee in the output valve. Ran the auto tune. Everything started to look good for 5-10 mins then it started to do the same effect. Slowly rising higher and higher. I noticed it not turning off power and climbed to 162 so I manually turned off the elements and turned them back on. Power did not continue until it dropped to 154. Could a faulty 50amp contactor be the culprit? Voltages coming out of it on each leg is at 120v.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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AwakenedBrewer
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 Posts: 21 Location: Norfolk, NE
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Link Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:43 am Post subject: |
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Installed a tee to the HLT with probe in it also moved the probe from the MLT to the back of the kettle. PID is set to default even the Pb compensation value to "0" so there's a slight difference from the Chef Alarm with probe in the middle of the HLT (no big deal). Been running for 40 mins at 156-157 by both probes near identical. Extremely consistent but again set value is supposed to be 154.
At this point I'm starting to just give in to the off temp and just go with it, but I'll know I'll have to come back to it later.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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