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HLT Elements firing when higher than target temp
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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: HLT Elements firing when higher than target temp Reply with quote


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For some reason the HLT Elements are firing when I have my set temp to 154° but the actual temp reading on PID is 155°-156°. It never gets down to 154°. I have ran the auto tune function and adjusted the temp difference using thermoworks chef alarm thermometer.
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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panel is a 50 amp Kit from The Electric Brewery
20 gallon kettles
2 elements in HLT and 2 in BK
20 gallons of water in HLT
PID in Auto Mode
PID setup / calibration completed
Auto Tuned completed at 150F
Set Value (SV) is 154F
Process Value (PV) is 155-156F (does not ever drop to 154)
Thermoworks Chef Alarm is reading same as the PV (154.9F+ at all times)

So I'm guessing there's a setting I'm missing or changed by accident. Changed the FILT on the PID to 5, could this be affecting the PID to want to fire up before getting to 154F? I can adjust the temp to be 2 degrees lower than desired for my recipes but it would be nice to set it and forget it. Anyone else have this issue?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would run the auto tune again. In some cases it may take a try or two. Good luck!

P.S. The FILT value is fine - it'll just smooth out what the PID reads and is actually a good thing.

Kal

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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done the Auto Tune method 4 times now for the SV to be at 154 and it's not getting the results. In fact the last time it increased the temp on the PV to 157-158 degrees. Pump is circulating while Auto Tuning.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is your pump running 100%? Can you post some pictures of your setup?

Kal

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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have the water pump running 100%. Here's a picture of my system.


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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your MLT temperature probe on the output of the kettle but don't see one on the HLT output done in the same way per our design. Where is your HLT temperature probe?

P.S. You may want to put your pumps lower - on the lower shelf would work well. Where you have them probably gives you lots of priming issues given that you're not using the recommended center inlet pumps and you have them very close to the same height as the kettle outputs.

Kal

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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The temp probe on HLT and BK are on the back of the kettles. I also auto tuned the BK to see if it did the same but it held temp just fine. As for the pumps, I was hoping it wouldn't be an issue and I could save shelf area for who knows what but am finding to have priming issues. They'll move soon.

I might try and reset the PID and start it over. If that doesn't help then I guess put a plug in the temp probe and change location but since the BK acts fine not sure on that.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard to say what the issue is as your design is different. Do you have any pictures of the inside of the HLT? You may have mixing issues / dead spots / stratification in the HLT. To avoid this I would put the HLT probe on output valve per my design on this website (same as the MLT).

The BK is different from the HLT (no recirculation, no HERMS coil, etc) so the flow would be different. (I.e. putting the probe in the wall in the BK and having it read accurately doesn't mean it'll work in all kettles in the wall).

Good luck!

Kal

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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While testing the BK I did recirculate using the whirlpool spout. It may be because it's lower on the kettle to move the water around the elements and the temp probe does not get a hotspot.


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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a hotspot near the temp probe should make the Chef Alarm thermometer read differently though and they are near identical.
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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a quick video of what's happening. You'll notice the temperature on neither the Chef Alarm or the PID comes down to 154.

https://youtu.be/9i1KXXhaZ3I
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One odd thing that I noticed in the video:

At the start of the video the Chef Alarm temp is 155.5 and the PID is 155.
By the end of the video the Chef Alarm has dropped to 155.3 but the PID has climbed to 156.
Not sure this means anything, but the fact that they seem to be going in opposite directions may mean you're not measuring the same place. That said, I'm not sure it matters.

The other odd thing I noticed is the pitch/sound of the pump changed when the heating element(s) kicked in, likely because your house voltage dropped from 245V to 232V but that still seems odd. My voltage drops too but the pump pitch never changes. I wonder if the pump flow is being restricted when the element is on?

Thinking about this some more, hotspots shouldn't cause concern with temperature control as long as everything is stable. You may not get even temperatures but if everything's stable, then the temperature should be able to hold temp. Instability comes when things are changing differently than what the system expects, like hotspots moving, flow changing, and so on.

I'm not sure what to recommend here as I've never tried with the temperature probe in the HLT kettle wall. I installed mine (and recommend in the build instructions) that it be placed in a Tee on the kettle output as it's the best place to ensure consistency and ensure accuracy, and possibly avoid temperature control issues. Putting it there may solve your problem. At the very least it would help prove if the issue is placement vs. something else going on. You could leave the HLT probe in place and move the MLT Tee to the HLT temporarily and swap the temp probes at the panel to see.

Kal

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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll swap the tee in the next day or two and see if it helps, but still bothers me that the PV never reaches the SV before it fires the elements. Just seems odd. I know the kettle does not drop that fast in temp, maybe 1-2 degree in 5 mins of recirculation and no lid. Worst case scenario I just set the temp to a higher amount than needed and watch the temp on MLT to match.

Not sure if there's a way to reset the PID to factory but I'll try that to if I can find out how. Manual doesn't say how, at least I haven't seen it yet.

Thanks for all the help Kal! Really appreciate the help you give everyone here.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AwakenedBrewer wrote:
Not sure if there's a way to reset the PID to factory but I'll try that to if I can find out how. Manual doesn't say how, at least I haven't seen it yet.

Simply set all the values to the defaults as per the manual. That would be another good thing to try. Reset to defaults and then run it as is without any auto-tuning to see how it behaves. If it's better, possibly one of the settings got changed inadvertently. Then try another auto-tune if you find it's not holding well at default settings. Auto tune is optional- not everyone needs to do it.
For complete details see th auto-tune instructions here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

Good luck!

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Midwest

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PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AwakenedBrewer wrote:
As for the pumps, I was hoping it wouldn't be an issue and I could save shelf area for who knows what but am finding to have priming issues. They'll move soon.



For what it's worth, I have my pumps at about the same location and don't have any priming issues (same pump head too). I just open the valve from my kettle a few seconds before I want to transfer or recirculate and the tubing fills up with liquid and the air pushes out on its own.

My only concern with your pumps is the inlet fitting used and how much drop you have in the line. I prefer to have my pump inlet be the lowest point of line. That helps the air go up away from the pump rather than towards the pump. Just my 2 cents.

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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I manually changed the "P", "I", and "D" value from what the auto tuning had them at, insanely high numbers, to match close to default. Default (at least on my MLT PID) for others is P=500, I=1000, and D=120. It still wasn't getting low enough. I changed the values even lower to P=350, I=275, and D=100. I now have the elements firing a little sooner and shorter in duration. Worked ok for a few cycles but then still shot up to 159 degrees.

Time to swap PID's and Temp probe temporally with the BK and test it. Test done... no change really.

I now added the tee in the output valve. Ran the auto tune. Everything started to look good for 5-10 mins then it started to do the same effect. Slowly rising higher and higher. I noticed it not turning off power and climbed to 162 so I manually turned off the elements and turned them back on. Power did not continue until it dropped to 154. Could a faulty 50amp contactor be the culprit? Voltages coming out of it on each leg is at 120v.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per my previous post: I'd recommend resetting all values to defaults, measuring temp at the Tee, NOT running the auto-tune, and seeing how it works.

Kal

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AwakenedBrewer




Joined: 04 Aug 2017
Posts: 21
Location: Norfolk, NE


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Installed a tee to the HLT with probe in it also moved the probe from the MLT to the back of the kettle. PID is set to default even the Pb compensation value to "0" so there's a slight difference from the Chef Alarm with probe in the middle of the HLT (no big deal). Been running for 40 mins at 156-157 by both probes near identical. Extremely consistent but again set value is supposed to be 154.

At this point I'm starting to just give in to the off temp and just go with it, but I'll know I'll have to come back to it later.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can certainly calibrate the Pb (offset) of the PID and get them to be the same. It was more of the other settings that would or could have an effect on how it behaves. Glad to hear it seems to be behaving as expected with the probe placed in the MLT Tee at the output valve.

You mentioned "also moved the probe from the MLT to the back of the kettle". I'm not sure what you mean there.

Kal

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