Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ


First Brew - What I Learnt

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Using Your Brewery
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
T-Bone




Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Kinglake, Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:23 am    Post subject: First Brew - What I Learnt Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
HI All, Kal,

So with a great deal of excitement after a long build process, i finally had my first brew day yesterday! I made an Imperial Red Ale, after one of my favourite beers from a local brewery near me.

This beer was probably not the best choice for my first brew as it opened up quite a few complexities due to the large grain bill - just under 16kg. Trying to learn how my new system works while also trying to deal with that was interesting.

I just wanted to make a bit of a summary of what I had trouble with and where i think the issues may be. Apologies in advance for the wall of text..
All in all, i really enjoyed my first all grain brew day and I think I have a good beer fermenting away...

Firstly, my system differs from the design in the following ways;
    I am using Blichmann Boil Coils
    I have an Auber Ins. Timer
    I am using MK II pumps from Keg King
    I sourced my HERMS coil locally and I think it has a thicker wall thickness
    I currently have no hop stopper installed


Issue #1 - Heating Strike Water
Due to my large grain bill i needed nearly 45 litres of strike water. As the top of my HERMS coil is at the 46 later mark on my HLT, I can only heat 30 litres max, strike water in my HLT. To get around this I just put the rest in my MLT and cycled it through the HERMS coil while heating the HLT.
This in itself was not an issue, however my MLT temp never got up to the HLT temp. It stopped about 1 degree (C) behind HLT. It also took ages to get up the last few degrees to where it stopped.
I initially thought it may be because there was such a small volume in the MLT the surface area to volume ratio was too high and it was just losing heat too quickly but now it don't think that was the case.
At that point, i just decided to add the rest of the strike water from he HLT and then ramp up the HLT if i needed to after mashing in to get the mash to the correct temp (66.7 C).

Issue #2 - Regaining Mash-In Heat Loss
Kal - in your brew day step by step, you seem to mash in @ mash temp, and wait 5-10 minutes for you mash to get back to temp.... This is far from what happened for me..
I think there are quite a few factors involved here, the primary one being the size of my mash, but my MLT temp dropped down to around 60 after mash in, and was very very slowly climbing back up, but after around 20 minutes it was still only at around 64.
I was getting worried at this point, given i'm basically mashing at the wrong temperature, so i ramped up my HLT to try and increase the temp more rapidly. I plugged in 72 on my HLT and after about 5 minutes the MLT started climbing (quite a lag before it reacts), As the MLT temp was climbing i lowered the HLT temp back down but i did it too late, and ended up overshooting on the MLT. It got up to around 69-70 before slowing and then slowly falling again.
By the end of my mash, the MLT temp had fluctuated from around 64 (when i started the timer) to 69-ish and then slowly falled back down to around 65.8.

Issue #3 - Boil Off Rate (my fault -oops)
So I left the duty cycle of my BK PID at 100 for the whole boil. The result was that i got a boil off rate of 9 litres per hour. WOW, i did not see that coming. That is a lot of water i pumped into my roof space... i really need to get the extraction vent plumbed all the way out of the roof...
That one is on me, i didn't read the build step properly and missed the bit where you back it off to 75-85%. Good to know though just how vigorously my system can boil if i need to!
According to BeerTools Pro my recipe calls for an OG of 1089 to get around 9% ABV depending on attenuation. This was based on a 44 litre post boil volume. I ended up with 39 litres post boil and even after adding nearly 2 litres of a stepped starter i'd prepared into the fermenter, my OG was a whopping 1100. I had to boil up some clean water to bring it down. i was not sure how to calculate it but i ended up with 1086 which i'm happy with.


So I spent a fair bit of time trying to work out where the temp issues stemmed from and i think i may know, which may be of use to others as i have seen quite a few posts where people have similar issues of the MLT temp never reaching HLT temp.

I suspect that the flow and circulation of water in the HLT itself is not adequately moving past, through and around the coil to allow sufficient heat transfer. In my case i think there are two main reasons of this.
1. my coil is quite tightly packed together, not allowing enough water to move between each section of the coil. This probably allows some heat transfer to happen from coil section to coil section instead of just from the HLT water to the coil.
2. Because the coil is so tightly packed, it stops a good water current from flowing evenly though the HLT, thus further reducing the heat transfer efficiency of the coil. I think this is also impacted by my HLT inlet not having tube attached to get a good strong flow in one direction. I just have a short piece of internal thread screwed onto the end of the elbow. It does make a circular current in the HLT but it's not that strong and when the water level is below the inlet, it much much less of a current.
I notice that the temp on my brewmometer, is always lower that the PID on the HLT, where on the other kettles it's almost the same. I think this is because there are significant temp variances in the HLT because of the above issues.

I though that maybe my pumps were not strong enough either, but "based on the spec" the Keg King MK II pumps have a higher flow rate and higher pressure than March 809's... I'd be quite interested to know what the real world comparison looked like though. As a side note, March 809 with SS head cost around $400-$500 in AU and these MK II are only $80, so it's a no brainer to me if they actually perform the same way.


What am i going o do differently -
I think i will stick to more subdued ~5% ABV beers with smaller grain bills until i get the hang of this system.
I also will try and increase the circulation in my HLT to see if that improves HERMS performance.
I need to work out what the MTL v HLT temp difference is based on grain volume so i have a better idea going in, what to set the HLT temp at.
I'll probably try and reduce the MLT ramp time after mash in, by over heating the strike water, but again, i need to work out based on grain volume, what the strike temp needs to be. This is tricky because the HLT temp will also be over after mash in and will also need to fall...
Lots to learn..
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: First Brew - What I Learnt Reply with quote

Congrats on the first brew!

T-Bone wrote:
Issue #1 - Heating Strike Water
Due to my large grain bill i needed nearly 45 litres of strike water. As the top of my HERMS coil is at the 46 later mark on my HLT, I can only heat 30 litres max, strike water in my HLT. To get around this I just put the rest in my MLT and cycled it through the HERMS coil while heating the HLT.

Yup - I had to do that too when I made a 12% barleywine. It's normal for really high gravity beers even if you have kettles twice the size of your finished batch. It doesn't cause any issues. Some brewers will do this all the time in fact if they have smaller kettles.

Quote:
This in itself was not an issue, however my MLT temp never got up to the HLT temp. It stopped about 1 degree (C) behind HLT. It also took ages to get up the last few degrees to where it stopped.

Were the temp probes calibrated beforehand using a temp that was near mash temp? See the 'Pb' setting here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

1 degree is pretty good however. If there's a difference in parts used on your setup, the mash temperature may never quite reach the Hot Liquor Tank temperature due to heat loss in the Mash/Lauter Tun, hoses, and pumps (this is normal and lots of people see this). It may be your hoses if they're not thick walled or long, or possibly the pump speed is lower. To compensate you may set the Hot Liquor Tank temperature a degree or two higher.

Quote:
Issue #2 - Regaining Mash-In Heat Loss
Kal - in your brew day step by step, you seem to mash in @ mash temp, and wait 5-10 minutes for you mash to get back to temp.... This is far from what happened for me..
I think there are quite a few factors involved here, the primary one being the size of my mash, but my MLT temp dropped down to around 60 after mash in, and was very very slowly climbing back up, but after around 20 minutes it was still only at around 64.

I was getting worried at this point, given i'm basically mashing at the wrong temperature, so i ramped up my HLT to try and increase the temp more rapidly. I plugged in 72 on my HLT and after about 5 minutes the MLT started climbing (quite a lag before it reacts), As the MLT temp was climbing i lowered the HLT temp back down but i did it too late, and ended up overshooting on the MLT. It got up to around 69-70 before slowing and then slowly falling again.
By the end of my mash, the MLT temp had fluctuated from around 64 (when i started the timer) to 69-ish and then slowly falled back down to around 65.8.

With really large grain bills my setup will take time too to get back up so if I'm concerned that that will happen I'll heat the strike water a few degrees above the mash temp. Normally I'm only concerned with beers where the mash temp is really high as I don't want to have the grain sit at a very low temp too long. Fortunately this rarely happens as really high ABV (big grain bill) beers tend to always be mashed really low to get them to attenuate enough to not be sickly sweet.

Your equipment's different. Different pumps, possibly less thick hoses, not sure about the kettles/false bottom and how well things flow, or what your mill gap setting is set to so I don't know how well things flowed for you. Make sure to mill fairly loose (0.045-0.050" gap) and run the pumps 100% open. You want really good flow for good heat transfer. Make sure the temp probes are calibrated at mash temp as well.

One test you can try is temporarily moving the MLT temp probe to the HERMS coil output to confirm that the temp at the output of the HERMS coil matches the HLT temp (it should). If it doesn't you're having heat transfer issues between the two fluids in the HLT.

Quote:
Issue #3 - Boil Off Rate (my fault -oops)
So I left the duty cycle of my BK PID at 100 for the whole boil. The result was that i got a boil off rate of 9 litres per hour. WOW, i did not see that coming. That is a lot of water i pumped into my roof space... i really need to get the extraction vent plumbed all the way out of the roof...

That's 2.3 gal/hr boiloff. I normally do 1.9 gal (7.2 L/hr) so not that different from me.

Quote:
That one is on me, i didn't read the build step properly and missed the bit where you back it off to 75-85%. Good to know though just how vigorously my system can boil if i need to!

Yup!

Quote:
According to BeerTools Pro my recipe calls for an OG of 1089 to get around 9% ABV depending on attenuation. This was based on a 44 litre post boil volume. I ended up with 39 litres post boil and even after adding nearly 2 litres of a stepped starter i'd prepared into the fermenter, my OG was a whopping 1100. I had to boil up some clean water to bring it down. i was not sure how to calculate it but i ended up with 1086 which i'm happy with.

It takes a couple of passes to get your efficiency figured out. This is a big beer too so with lower ABV beers your mash efficiency will likely be higher.

Quote:
I suspect that the flow and circulation of water in the HLT itself is not adequately moving past, through and around the coil to allow sufficient heat transfer.

Try measuring the temp at the HERMS coil output to see. That'll prove it for you. Make sure the two probes (MLT which is now on the HERMS coil output, as well as the HLT) are calibrated identically.

Quote:
I though that maybe my pumps were not strong enough either, but "based on the spec" the Keg King MK II pumps have a higher flow rate and higher pressure than March 809's... I'd be quite interested to know what the real world comparison looked like though.

I'm not familiar with those pumps but keep in mind that when manufacturers quote flow rates it's with zero backpressure. Just like an air fan, as soon as you apply any back pressure many fans (and pumps) will slow down a lot. The vent I recommend for the hood is a great example of one that doesn't slow down as much as some when it needs to push through long runs.

Good luck with the future brews! Sounds like it was a fun day and I'm sure the beer will still be excellent!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
T-Bone




Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Kinglake, Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply Kal.

Quote:
Were the temp probes calibrated beforehand using a temp that was near mash temp?


At this stage i don't actually have anything more accurate to calibrate them with, however before I brewed I added cold tap water to my BK, and setup my pumps and hoses to just run it into the outlets for my MLT and HLT so i could see if they were all measuring the same temperature. They actually are well within 1 degree of each other anyway.
Based on this, and brewmometer readings, I think this is a genuine temperature difference, not a calibration issue. Once I have something like a thermopen to check against, it will definitely go though that process though.

Quote:
Your equipment's different. Different pumps, possibly less thick hoses, not sure about the kettles/false bottom and how well things flow, or what your mill gap setting is set to so I don't know how well things flowed for you. Make sure to mill fairly loose (0.045-0.050" gap) and run the pumps 100% open. You want really good flow for good heat transfer. Make sure the temp probes are calibrated at mash temp as well.


Yeah my pumps are different, they stack up well on paper but i have no idea about the real world comparison.
My hoses are 7/8th's just like yours. I had a fortunate shipping issue with Amazon and ended up getting half of it for free, yay! That stuff costs a fortune in Aus. It's about half the price, including shipping to get it from the states..
My kettles are all 20gal G2 Blichmanns with Blichmann false bottom.
Not sure about mill gap is i got my grain pre milled...

I think flow through the herms coil is definitely an issue. I noticed that my grain didn't really get packed down at all. It just kinda floated around for the whole mash. I think this is more related to the fact that my herms coil has a larger wall thickness (smaller ID) than yours, which is restricting flow.

Quote:
Try measuring the temp at the HERMS coil output to see. That'll prove it for you. Make sure the two probes (MLT which is now on the HERMS coil output, as well as the HLT) are calibrated identically.

Yeah I'm going to do that before my next brew.
I'm pretty sure there are two issues. 1 is my herms coil ID is too narrow restricting flow too much so my MLT isn't cycling rapidly enough. 2 my circulation within my HLT isn't adequate which is reducing the efficiency of the herms coil heat transfer. I need to make some adjustments to the setup to fix that.


Out of interest have you seen the prototype new herms coil design the BrewPi guys are working on? It looks quite interesting. Low profile high efficiency.
Back to top
701pilot




Joined: 10 May 2016
Posts: 50
Location: northern california

Drinking: Bohemian Pilsner,Caribou Slobber, Munich Helles, Weissbier, Black Bute Porter, RIS, Irish Red Ale

Working on: Milk Chocolate Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Out of interest have you seen the prototype new herms coil design the BrewPi guys are working on? It looks quite interesting. Low profile high efficiency.


Quite a good test on the efficiency of Herms coils. Long story short they determined that a coil length of 25' with a diameter of 1/2" is about the best. Also the flow of the wort should be from top down. If your interested try this link.

https://www.brewpi.com/what-is-ideal-herms-coil-length-theory-experiments/

_________________
Mark

I can't change the laws of physics but with enough horse power I can chase it into submission.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T-Bone wrote:
At this stage i don't actually have anything more accurate to calibrate them with, however before I brewed I added cold tap water to my BK, and setup my pumps and hoses to just run it into the outlets for my MLT and HLT so i could see if they were all measuring the same temperature. They actually are well within 1 degree of each other anyway.
Based on this, and brewmometer readings, I think this is a genuine temperature difference, not a calibration issue. Once I have something like a thermopen to check against, it will definitely go though that process though.

The temp probes should be calibrated at mash temp as that's what matters. They aren't always completely linear in terms of response so you may see agreement at cold water temps (40-60F) but not at mash temps (150-160F).
calibration should be done before they are installed in the plumbing. i.e. put all 3 in a hot cup of water.

Quote:
Not sure about mill gap is i got my grain pre milled...

Pre-milled grain tends to be very finely milled because most brewers are not using recirculating setups and milling fine lends itself to high mash efficiency on those setups. This may cause flow issues for you. On recirculating setups you want to mill much looser.

Quote:
Out of interest have you seen the prototype new herms coil design the BrewPi guys are working on? It looks quite interesting. Low profile high efficiency.

As long as the wort temp at the HERMS output is the same as the HLT water temp (true for anyone using my design), that's all that matters. You can't get any 'higher' efficiency than that. There's nothing magical about it nor is a special 'design' required. A simple coil is water is all that's needed.

Good luck!

KAl

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
T-Bone




Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Kinglake, Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You can't get any 'higher' efficiency than that. There's nothing magical about it nor is a special 'design' required. A simple coil is water is all that's needed.


This statement is only true if you are only looking at it from the perspective of heat transfer within the coil, and ignoring flow rate which plays a huge part in how quickly the heated water can alter the temperature of the whole MLT.
Having water exiting the coil at HLT temp is great, but if it's only trickling out it will take a very long time to ramp up the MLT.
The new design they are working on uses 3 parallel coils connected to 1 one inch fitting to increase flow rate will maintaining the same contact area.
I think you will find that this is a lot more efficient when you look at the whole system, not just the water temp exiting the coil.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True. But on the design I detail and use I run my centre inlet pumps at full speed which produces a high flow rate and the wort temp exiting my 'regular' HERMS coil matches my HLT temp, so no further efficiencies can be achieved on my setup. in other words, if you build to my design there's no need for a fancier or more efficient HERMS coil because the wort existing the coil can't be any higher than the HLT water temp.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:15 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
T-Bone




Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Kinglake, Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so no further efficiencies can be achieved


I guess everyone just needs to work out what's going to work best for them. I just try not to look at things with the mindset that it can't be improved.

Outside of their fancy new design, they also showed through experimentation that a normal 8 meter coil still delivers the same temperature exiting the coil.
Id say this is more efficient in multiple ways;
*Lower profile in the HLT means more strike water can be used before exposing the coil.
*Higher flow rates compared to a 15 meter coil because of less friction means faster ramp time in the MLT.
*Less material used means lower cost.

I currently do not have the same coil as your system so i'm having significant issues with flow and therefor ramp times. The ID of my coil is smaller as it has thicker walls. I knew this going in but it was the only locally available one I could find at the time and I hoped it would still work - it doesn't.
In doing research on how i can best resolve that, I found their experimental data quite interesting. I want to achieve the best ramp times I can and I also want the lowest profile in my HLT I can achieve.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup! Every setup can be different so it's important to balance and weigh different options and choose what works best for you. Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Tungsten




Joined: 06 Dec 2014
Posts: 318
Location: Buffalo, NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Brewpi article was really interesting, thanks to T-Bone and 701pilot for linking it. It actually convinced me to change my design, and it saved me some money! Boom!
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Using Your Brewery All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group