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Higher Power Heating Elements

 
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Nathan




Joined: 13 Mar 2017
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Higher Power Heating Elements Reply with quote


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I've been contemplating starting a 2 BBL nano brewery for awhile and have been planning on building my own electronic control system. This site is a great proof of concept for what I had in mind and definitely shows that what I had envisioned should be possible.

Does anyone know of any larger low watt density heating elements that are similar to the stainless Camco 5500's?

I'm probably going to go with ~20kW for the heating per vessel, and would prefer to punch as few holes for the elements as possible. A 10kW/240V/single phase element would be great (so I can isolate each one onto separate 50A control circuits). They certainly exist, but I haven't seen any with a low watt density.
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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may have better luck going to ProBrewer.com with this question. Almost everyone here uses the 5500 watt element.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. In fact, we have pro brewers using as little as 11,000W (2 elements) to brew up to 3.5 bbl. Some examples here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/testimonials

Our largest 50A control panel for 30+ gallons as designed can handle up to about 11000 watts of power, enough to effectively boil 2-3 bbl (31-93 gallons) and possibly more depending on kettle configuration/insulation, ambient temperature, use of a kettle chimney, etc.

The larger the volume, the longer it takes to heat up and get to boil. The more power you have, the faster you can heat water or wort. There are online calculators available that you can plug numbers into to see what sort of power you would require to heat in the amount of time you deem acceptable. Here are a few examples:

http://www.brewheads.com/powerrequired.php
http://www.brewheads.com/rise.php

Using the second link, 11000W of power would heat 3 bbl (93 gallons) at a rate of 0.77 degrees per minute, and 2 bbl (62 gallons) at a rate of 1.15 degrees per minute.

To heat faster, a larger power control panel to drive more heating elements would be required or larger power elements as you mentioned. Keep in mind that parts rated for more than 50A are considerably more expensive and harder to find as they are specialized (not standardized). For example, there is no NEMA standard for plugs/receptacles above 50A. So a control panel above 50A typically need to be hard-wired which itself introduces complexities and other concerns such as electrical permitting as now the control panel becomes part of the building wiring.

If you do decide you need more power for a substantially larger setup, one option that many brewers use is to use our 50A control panel to maintain hot liquor temperature and boil, but temporarily add extra power with one or two separate 5500W heating elements on a separate 30-50A circuit. All that is required is one or two 30A outlets and a breaker box located near the kettles to turn them on and off. Any electrician can wire this up. These breakers control the separate elements with the breaker box and turn them on to heat up the hot liquor tank water faster or to get to boil faster. Once close to target temperature, they're turned off and then the heating elements driven by our 50A control panel are used to maintain temperature/boil. While maybe not as elegant, this is a more cost effective solution than building one massive control panel to handle more than 50A of power.

Good luck!

Kal

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Nathan




Joined: 13 Mar 2017
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DP,

Thanks, I'll check with the Probrewer forums at some point.


Kal,

Thanks, I saw those calculators from a previous post you'd made.

With 11kW of power, 62 gallons, and a nominal 60F initial temperature, that's 80 minutes to warm up to 152F and then another 54 minutes to warm up to boiling.

Not completely unrealistic waiting times, but it sure would be nice to halve them with 22 kW.

I'm not planning on using any parts over 50A. I would be running two separate, isolated 50A control circuits into a single microprocessor and control panel that I would have to design.

I may end up using the Blichmann 55 gallon extensions, so I suppose I could attach 2 5500kW elements into the main boilermakers and another 2 into the extensions. Then I would have the option to run it as a 1 BBL / 11kW system or a 2 BBL / 22kW system and still use the economical Camco elements. What do you think about this?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathan wrote:
I'm not planning on using any parts over 50A. I would be running two separate, isolated 50A control circuits into a single microprocessor and control panel that I would have to design.

If this'll be a commercial setup talk to your electrical inspector before to make sure he's ok with this. Some get a bit persnickety when it comes to combining circuits in a box.

Good luck!

Kal

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Nathan




Joined: 13 Mar 2017
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Nathan wrote:
I'm not planning on using any parts over 50A. I would be running two separate, isolated 50A control circuits into a single microprocessor and control panel that I would have to design.

If this'll be a commercial setup talk to your electrical inspector before to make sure he's ok with this. Some get a bit persnickety when it comes to combining circuits in a box.

Good luck!

Kal


Think two separate 50A high voltage control panels connected into a third low voltage DC panel would be less controversial? A little more convoluted unfortunately...
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure. Best you talk to the inspector.

Kal

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