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Making a starter
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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Have the grain and all the hops except the Northdown. I bought Fuggles and East Kent Goldings, which of these do you recommend in place of the Northdown?

I received my stir plate in the post today with a 2l flask and 1lb of DME and 2 packs of Wyeast 1968 (Dec 2016).

I have been struggling to work out how to make the starter.
How many packs of yeast to use?
How much DME?
How long to stir?
Will I have to do multiple steps ? (not sure how this works).
Do I need to add nutrients? I forgot to order this but I have a packet I bought quite a few months back. Does it go off?

I need to go over the Brew Day info a couple more times and I am going to run through with just water so I am 100% certain everything is working ok and then its all system go for my first Electric Brewery Batch!!!

I am looking at getting a 14g fermenter but at the moment I will be using two 7gal Fastferments. Anything special I should do to split the starter between two fermenters?

Edit: Do I Activate the smack pack before adding it to the starter wort?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jimboh,

Either of those hops will work as a replacement in Fullers London Pride. Which you choose depends on what flavours/aromas you're after. I'd suggest reading up on both to see which is more to your liking.

For your starter questions I would suggest starting a new thread in the YEAST sub-forum as it's not specific to this recipe. I highly recommend reading Chapter 6 of How to Brew and Appendix A of Brewing Classic Styles as mentioned above as it covers making starters in detail and answers your questions. Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal, yes I have read both of those articles. As a newcomer to all grain I will admit to suffering information overload. Getting to the specifics of what I actually need to do now can be extremely frustrating.

I could refer to the many you tube videos for advice, but the advice on the forums invariably argues against the wisdom of that and the videos I have watched supports that advice.

I asked the yeast questions in this forum because this is the recipe I am going to follow and from my research to date , the answer depends a lot on the recipe and the yeast in question. I perhaps wrongly assumed that it would take seconds for someone in the know to answer a question that is going to take me hours to work out for myself. No problem, google is my friend... must keep telling myself that.

To many the recipe may provide all that is needed to me, just a ton of questions.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimboh wrote:
I received my stir plate in the post today with a 2l flask and 1lb of DME and 2 packs of Wyeast 1968 (Dec 2016).

I have been struggling to work out how to make the starter.
How many packs of yeast to use?[

All you need is one. You make a starter to increase the total number of yeast cells instead of just pitching more vials or smack-packs. The less yeast you start with, the more you need to make.

Quote:
How much DME?

In the recipe I recommend 4 packs / vials which is 400B cells for 12 gallons of wort. If making only 6 gallons then 200B is enough. If making 24 gallons you'd need 800B. I don't know how much wort you're making so I can't comment on how many cells you need.

How much DME you need, depends on how many cells you start with and how many cells you want to end up with.

A handy calculator: https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

The books mentioned above also have charts and calculators you can use.

Quote:
How long to stir?

Until it's done fermenting. Usually 24 hours is enough. With really big starters I sometimes go 48 hours. You'll know it's done when the foam (krausen) drops completely. The wort (actually beer at this point) will also usually be a bit lighter in colour.

Quote:
Will I have to do multiple steps ? (not sure how this works).

If you can't get to your target cell count in one step, multiple steps are required. You decant the wort (leave the yeast) and make more. The link above allows for multiple steps and does the math for you.

Quote:
Do I need to add nutrients? I forgot to order this but I have a packet I bought quite a few months back. Does it go off?

Not sure if it goes off. I never use yeast nutrients. It's (generally speaking) not required.

Quote:
I am looking at getting a 14g fermenter but at the moment I will be using two 7gal Fastferments. Anything special I should do to split the starter between two fermenters?

No. Make the amount of cells you need, then split it. I usually make it in one big 5L flask then split it into two 2L flasks and let it settle out in the fridge overnight, decant, and pitch. You can also just do it in the 5L flask if you're good at somewhat guessing at getting half into each fermenter.

Quote:
Edit: Do I Activate the smack pack before adding it to the starter wort?

Doesn't matter. The smack pack has a small amount of wort in it. You'll be adding the yeast to a lot more wort in the starter.

Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. The help is much appreciated. I will be doing the same volume you did in this post, I am not ready to start altering recipes yet.
I will study the info at your links.
My confusion came using online calc tools that were suggesting I would need 2 or 3 packs and 2 or 3 steps to reach the target.

In this recipe you are doing a 12Gal batch is that right, starting with 20Gal in the hot liquor tank?

Looks like I will also need to go get a 5l flask.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My recipes are all for 12 gallons of wort. The amount of water I start with in the HLT doesn't factor in to starter calculations. Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The calculator at the link is great, thanks for that.
I note that to increase the number of cells you can either:
a. add more yeast packs
b. raise the og by adding more dme
c. perform multiple steps (using more dme)

Is there a benefit in doing c rather than just staring out with more dme, I assume option b will be quicker?
Or am I abusing the calculator?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starters assume a gravity of around 1.036 or so it is ideal. So if you add more DME, you also need more water.

Kal

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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, so multiple steps it is. Or wait, so that is why I need a 5l flask!
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the other. Both work.

EDIT: I've split this discussion into a separate thread as it's general questions about making starters that are not specific to any beer. The only thing that varies between beers as far as starters are concerns is the number of cells you need.

Kal

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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimboh wrote:
Thanks, so multiple steps it is. Or wait, so that is why I need a 5l flask!


i do 10 gal batches and use a 5 liter flask. this is easier for me than building up a starter in multiple steps or using two smaller flasks to get the quantity i need. although tempting, it is not recommended to increase the starting gravity of the starter wort above 1.036, in an effort to reduce the volume required. higher gravity can result in more yeast growth but can also stress the yeast. using 1.036 also makes the math easy for how much dme to add. sure, the calculator does it for you but the formula for grams of dme required is basically the volume of the starter required times 100. so a 1 liter starter needs 100 grams of dme, a 2.5 liter starter needs 250 grams, etc.

i ferment in two carboys so once my starter is done, i split it into two large mason jars, place on a relatively loose lid and set in the fridge for a day or so. this allows the yeast to settle out of solution into the bottom of the jar. when the boil starts on brew day, i carefully drain off most of the starter liquid down the drain and let the remaining liquid/yeast warm to pitching temp. when ready to pitch, i shake up the jar to put the yeast back into suspension and dump into the carboy.

many folks don't decant off the extra liquid and just dump the whole starter volume into the wort. if doing that, need to consider the extra liquid volume in your wort volume calculations. after all, a two liter starter is a half gallon of liquid. that can be a problem if you place 5.5 gal of wort in a 6 gallon carboy and then dump in another half gallon of liquid. also, that starter liquid doesn't taste that great (it is essentially a beer without any hops in it). this really isn't that big a deal for a heavier beer as the starter liquid flavor gets lost under everything else but can be an issue if you are making something very light like a cream or blonde ale.
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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Yeast too old and if not 2 starters or 1 two step Reply with quote

Got waylaid and am only now ready to make my London Pride using your recipe.
I have a stir plate and 2L flask.
Trouble is I bought 2 packs of the liquid yeast (1968) a month ago and its dated end Dec 16.
The calculator suggests these are almost void of cells.
Do I throw them away or are they worth using? I don't want to waste the Malt/Hops as well as the yeast.

If I can use them, I will be brewing 12 gals but fermenting in two 6 gal fastferments.
So, I would have several options
a) Make 2 separate 2l starters with a liquid yeast pack for each, one starter for each fastferment.
b) Make 1 multistep starter using either 1 or 2 yeast packs for the full 12gals.
c) Make 1 multistep starter using either 1 or 2 yeast packs for 6 gals and use a dry yeast for the second 6 gals for variation.

Having never used a liquid yeast or created a starter before looking for some advice please.

Can I test viability of yeast by activating it in the packet?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Yeast too old and if not 2 starters or 1 two step Reply with quote

jimboh wrote:
Trouble is I bought 2 packs of the liquid yeast (1968) a month ago and its dated end Dec 16.
The calculator suggests these are almost void of cells.
Do I throw them away or are they worth using?

I would assume there's very low amounts of viable cells left (20% maybe) and go with that. Nothing wrong with overpitching this one of you're estimating low.

Quote:
Can I test viability of yeast by activating it in the packet?

Yes.

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Yeast too old and if not 2 starters or 1 two step Reply with quote

jimboh wrote:
Got waylaid and am only now ready to make my London Pride using your recipe.
I have a stir plate and 2L flask.
Trouble is I bought 2 packs of the liquid yeast (1968) a month ago and its dated end Dec 16.
The calculator suggests these are almost void of cells.
Do I throw them away or are they worth using? I don't want to waste the Malt/Hops as well as the yeast.

If I can use them, I will be brewing 12 gals but fermenting in two 6 gal fastferments.
So, I would have several options
a) Make 2 separate 2l starters with a liquid yeast pack for each, one starter for each fastferment.
b) Make 1 multistep starter using either 1 or 2 yeast packs for the full 12gals.
c) Make 1 multistep starter using either 1 or 2 yeast packs for 6 gals and use a dry yeast for the second 6 gals for variation.

Having never used a liquid yeast or created a starter before looking for some advice please.

Can I test viability of yeast by activating it in the packet?


To be safe I would recommend doing a starter with both yeast packets in one flask. Say around 1000 mL. IF you are using a stir plate you can bump it up to a larger size in 24 hours. I wouldn't throw them away.

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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice guys I will give it a try today.
Why do you advise '1000 mL'?. I was going to do 2L allow it to settle overnight remove wort and then add another 1L from the calculator at brewersfriend this seems to work but then doing 1L then 1.5L also works.
Is there any benefits to doing steps in a particular way ie small then big or big then small.
Does using a smaller first step stress the yeast less?
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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://byo.com/resources/build-a-yeast-starter?ref=39
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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link. I had read that while researching.
This article like the others I have read does not go into any details about the size of the starter and whether there are benefits to be had starting small or starting large. I just thought as you said start with 1L you may have had a reason.
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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want to build up the yeast. Going to large at once will be counterproductive. I usually start with 1L in the 2L flask, than bump up 24 hours later.
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jimboh




Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I will do that then.
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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some good info to.

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

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