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jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
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 Link Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:49 am Post subject: Boil kettle temperature stratification and other issues |
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Picked up a full Electric brewery system yesterday partially completed. Wasted no time finishing the build. What a fantastic piece of kit!
Whilst running through a test of functionality I initially thought I had a fault with my pid in the boil kettle.
It was reading exactly the same as the sensors on the other two kettles until I filled it with cold water when it dropped as expected. But after 10 mins or so of heating the pid temperature was unchanged while the kettle thermometer had risen dramatically. Eventually I cottoned on and gave the boil kettle water a stir and hey presto temperature on pid rose to match the manual thermometer.
The element is installed a little over 4 inches from the kettle base, covered, but not by much with 5Gal.
When I come to do my first real batch is it important to stir the wort during heating to boil to eliminate these temperature differences (and they where significant differences)?
Also, the previous owner, who alas never saw their brewery in action, has built very closely to the book. I was surprised, considering the large number of fittings on these kettles that there was not a fitting on the boil kettle to transfer the wort from the mash/launter kettle. Why? Un-tethered hoses always seem to end up spewing hot sticky stuff all over the floor. Is there a good reason why there is not a fitting in the top of the boil kettle for this purpose? I noted in the brew day pics the hose feeding over the top lip.
I am having a bit of difficulty finding all the info in the manual, so pardon me if this is covered, but how does one clean under the false bottom of the mash kettle? It doesn't seem to come out easily, although I may not be trying right.
I am a little concerned about ventilation, as so much is made of it in the book. I never worried about it doing 6gal batches with my grainfather. So the windows steam up a bit. I brew in my finished basement which has a second kitchen. Unfortunately the stove hood is not externally ventilated and running the pipework for ducted ventilation might not be an option. I was thinking maybe just running a dehumidifier??? unprofessional I know but an option?
I will probably only brew once a month.
Finally, i have the instruction book but there seems to be a lot online that isn't in the book. eg Brew Day, and I really want a printed copy in front of me. It is a lot more complicated than the method used with the Grainfather.
Is it possible to download all the great stuff on the website?
Edit:
I just read a comment someone made about not spilling when changing hoses around. I have only played around with water but have ended up with a lot on the floor. Tips please. Also, on the test runs, my pumps were at least five feet below the kettles but were often reluctant to prime. Tips pleae?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11123
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Boil kettle temperature stratification and other issues |
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Welcome to the forum!
| jimboh wrote: | | Picked up a full Electric brewery system yesterday partially completed. Wasted no time finishing the build. What a fantastic piece of kit! |
Glad to hear you're enjoying the kit!
| Quote: | | When I come to do my first real batch is it important to stir the wort during heating to boil to eliminate these temperature differences (and they where significant differences)? |
No. There should be no need to stir at all. Do you have pictures of your setup so that we can see what you're using/how things are installed? You may not be building per our recommendations which may be causing issues.
| Quote: | | Also, the previous owner, who alas never saw their brewery in action, has built very closely to the book. I was surprised, considering the large number of fittings on these kettles that there was not a fitting on the boil kettle to transfer the wort from the mash/launter kettle. Why? |
See our BREW DAY STEP BY STEP process. Having no input fitting on the boil kettle means it's easier to take samples while sparging. You can't do that if you're connected.
| Quote: | | Un-tethered hoses always seem to end up spewing hot sticky stuff all over the floor. Is there a good reason why there is not a fitting in the top of the boil kettle for this purpose? I noted in the brew day pics the hose feeding over the top lip. |
If you use the 2-part hose fittings (and other parts) as recommended in the built instructions there should not be any issues with hoses wanting to fall out of the kettles. You may have built differently, requiring a different process. Do you have pictures of your hoses / kettles?
| Quote: | | I am having a bit of difficulty finding all the info in the manual, so pardon me if this is covered, but how does one clean under the false bottom of the mash kettle? It doesn't seem to come out easily, although I may not be trying right. |
If you are using the recommended kettles and false bottom, the false bottom simply lifts out for easy cleaning. No tools required. See here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/kettles-overview?page=6
I simply turn the dip tube by hand slightly so that it can be removed and then the false bottom lifts out. A quick 30 second scrub in the sink is all that's required. I take it you're using different a kettle/false bottom. Got any pictures?
| Quote: | | I am a little concerned about ventilation, as so much is made of it in the book. I never worried about it doing 6gal batches with my grainfather. So the windows steam up a bit. I brew in my finished basement which has a second kitchen. Unfortunately the stove hood is not externally ventilated and running the pipework for ducted ventilation might not be an option. I was thinking maybe just running a dehumidifier??? unprofessional I know but an option? |
No humidifier will ever be able to remove moisture out of the air as fast as good brewing system is able to boil. The grainfather's a simpler setup that produces a much much weaker boil (much weaker than what I recommend). When I boil in my 20 gallon kettles I'm putting water into the air at a rate of 1.9 gallons/hour. Here's a video that one of our customers posted with our control panel running a boil nice and vigorously - this is what I recommend: https://www.instagram.com/p/BRpE8_TFG0q/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery
Here's a video of me boiling in my own brewery using a 5500W element in ~13-14 gallons of wort: https://www.instagram.com/p/BNcV1wtA_1D/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery
The grainfather with only a 1600-2000W element (compared to 4500W+ that I recommend for ~5 gallon batches) boils off much less than that. They mention a boil off rate of 0.67 gallons/hour in the manual but many users are getting significantly less than that. So it's big difference at probably only 1/3 the boil off rate.
There is no commercially available 120V dehumidifier that will draw 1.9 gallons/hour out of the air I'm afraid. Think about how often you'd dump the water in an average dehumidifier: Most domestic dehumidifiers take 18-24 hours to extract that much water from the air so you're putting water into the air much faster than you can extract.
If you want to run a setup that'll give you a good hard boil, you really need a dedicated exhaust system as documented in my ventilation instructions here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/ventilation
| Quote: | | I will probably only brew once a month. |
How often you brew doesn't matter as it doesn't affect how fast water is put into the air during the hour or two you do happen to boil. It's that 1+ hour hard boil that throws lots of water into the air. You don't want that condensing in the house on the walls.
| Quote: | Finally, i have the instruction book but there seems to be a lot online that isn't in the book. eg Brew Day, and I really want a printed copy in front of me. It is a lot more complicated than the method used with the Grainfather.
Is it possible to download all the great stuff on the website? |
I'm afraid not. There's a lot of information (including recipes and thousands of forum hints/tips) that are only available online and not in the general built guide in the book.
| Quote: | Edit:
I just read a comment someone made about not spilling when changing hoses around. I have only played around with water but have ended up with a lot on the floor. Tips please. |
Close the valves before connecting/disconnecting. A small bowl to catch a few drips is recommended.
| Quote: | | Also, on the test runs, my pumps were at least five feet below the kettles but were often reluctant to prime. Tips pleae? |
This doesn't sound normal. What pumps are you using? Do you have pictures of this setup? I also don't see how your pumps can be 5 feet below the kettles either. Even with pumps flat on the floor that would mean your kettle bottoms are 5 to 5.5 feet in the air? Do you have picture of this setup? Something doesn't sound right at all as you'd need a ladder to get into the kettles if your table tops are 5+ feet high.
Good luck!
Kal
_________________
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
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| Link Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No. There should be no need to stir at all. Do you have pictures of your setup so that we can see what you're using? You may not be building per our recommendations which may be causing issues. |
As I said the owner followed the book very closely.
There is a definite difference in the temp of the liquid above the element and below it. The control panel thermometer is below the element. Obviously heat rises so there will be a temp gradient. Once boiling the liquid will be moving so this should mix it up, but initially the liquid at the bottom will be much cooler than at the top. I was reading 60 on the panel and 100 on the kettle dial.
An occasional gentle stir during heating would even the temps out. Just wondering if this was advisable or not.
| Quote: | | I simply turn the dip tube by hand slightly so that it can be removed and then the false bottom lifts out. A quick 30 second scrub in the sink is all that's required. I take it you're using different a kettle/false bottom. Got any pictures? |
Thanks, I did not realise that the dip tube was movable. I have to pull it out a little to disengage the pin then it will rotate and then the false bottom comes out easy.
| Quote: | | If you use the 2-part hose fittings (and other parts) as recommended in the built instructions there should not be any issues with hoses wanting to fall out of the kettles. You may have built differently, requiring a different process. Do you have pictures of your hoses / kettles? |
So i assume it is the weight of the quick connect fitting that will keep the hose in the kettle.
| Quote: | | I'm afraid not. There's a lot of information (including recipes and thousands of forum hints/tips) that are only available online and not in the general built guide in the book. |
It was mainly the brew day instructions I wanted printed at hand for the first 3 or 4 times I brew. I can cut and paste the text to a doc for printing.
| Quote: | | This doesn't sound normal. What pumps are you using? Do you have pictures of this setup? I also don't see how your pumps can be 5 feet below the kettles either. Even with pumps flat on the floor that would mean your kettle bottoms are 5 to 5.5 feet in the air? Do you have picture of this setup? Something doesn't sound right at all as you'd need a ladder to get into the kettles if your table tops are 5+ feet high. |
OK so i had had 3 pints of my Old Speckled Hen clone prior to writing and its closer to 3ft from the outlet to the floor where the pumps were sited.
Pumps are chuggers.
Another question related to chugger pumps, Do they drain completely when mounted horizontally? Or should they be mounted to a board that allows them to be inverted for full drainage?
| Quote: | | How often you brew doesn't matter as it doesn't affect how fast water is put into the air during the hour or two you do happen to boil. It's that 1+ hour hard boil that throws lots of water into the air. You don't want that condensing in the house on the walls. |
I realise its the same amount each brew but If I was to brew daily then the humidity would be a major concern. Once a month
is a little different. I like to shower without using the extractor fan because I don't like to be wet and cold. The walls in the bathroom are pretty soaked when I am finished but I open the doors and window when I am done and it dries quickly. If I was to do this 10 times a day the walls would get pretty disgusting I am sure.
I realise wort moisture will be worse than plain old water moisture.
I will have to investigate whether it is possible to run extractor ducting to this area of the house, but I would hate to think it a showstopper.
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jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
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| Link Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I have some alternative solutions to my ventilation problem....
I had discounted installing my brewery in my attached garage because, although it does have heating, I keep it way down around 5-10c over the winter. Uncomfortable for brewing and too cold for fermenting, so I would have to transport 10gallons of wort downstairs to my fermenters - which is a non starter. Or turn the heat up in my garage (waste of energy). Or build a temp cabinet in the garage... maybe.
Also , my brew area in my basement is directly below my garage. I could run a 2inch pipe through the ceiling/floor and then run a smaller hose through the pipe to deliver directly into my fermenters. As I only have 7 gal fermenters now I could install a web cam in my brew area so I can monitor the fill process, I like this idea .
I have the fan you recommend in the build notes and I could run a pipe straight through the garage wall.
I don't mind turning the garage heating up for a brew day, just don't like to heat it all winter for no reason.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11123
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jimboh wrote: | There is a definite difference in the temp of the liquid above the element and below it. The control panel thermometer is below the element. Obviously heat rises so there will be a temp gradient. Once boiling the liquid will be moving so this should mix it up, but initially the liquid at the bottom will be much cooler than at the top. I was reading 60 on the panel and 100 on the kettle dial.
An occasional gentle stir during heating would even the temps out. Just wondering if this was advisable or not. |
No problems with stirring - I'm just trying to figure out why you have too... The setup looks identical to mine and my temperatures between the PID and the Blichmann analog dial thermometer typically match. I wonder if it's because you were using water (I believe). I do stir mine before going to a boil but that's because I want to take a wort gravity reading before I boil. It may be that mine's just slightly in motion then (?). Not sure. Maybe some others can chime in that may have noticed something similar on their setups and know why. That said, if stirring helps, no problems with stirring.
| Quote: | | Thanks, I did not realise that the dip tube was movable. I have to pull it out a little to disengage the pin then it will rotate and then the false bottom comes out easy. |
Yup! Take a look at the manual that comes with the kettles for complete details.
| Quote: | | So i assume it is the weight of the quick connect fitting that will keep the hose in the kettle. |
I used two parts in the instructions (an NPT quick disconnect and an NPT to barb fitting) and the weight of the two I find works really well. Never any concerns with the hose falling out. See here for pictures/details: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hoses?page=4
| Quote: | | OK so i had had 3 pints of my Old Speckled Hen clone prior to writing and its closer to 3ft from the outlet to the floor where the pumps were sited. Pumps are chuggers. |
I'm not sure if Chugger pumps on the inside use similar impellers to the March pumps I recommend in my instructions, I would assume that there's some differences (and possibly others) if you're having pump priming issues (?). 3 foot distance should be fine. Make sure to open the valves in the order recommended in the BREW DAY STEP BY STEP to maximum the 'push' down to the pump from the kettle to flood the head. Again, if way they flood or the impeller is different from the pumps I recommend then priming may possibly be harder, though this is usually more of an issue with those who use non-center inlet pumps. The ones with straight inline 1/2" NPT input/output tend to be harder to prime than one with a 3/4" center inlet (which is the main reason I use them/recommend them - it means you don't need a bleeder valve like some have to install).
| Quote: | | Another question related to chugger pumps, Do they drain completely when mounted horizontally? Or should they be mounted to a board that allows them to be inverted for full drainage? |
I'm not sure about chugger (I use March), but I would imagine they would not drain completely given that both the input and output are higher than the spinning impeller. I use this to blow standing water out of the pumps and other places at the end end of the brew day: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/compact-shop-vac
| Quote: | | I realise its the same amount each brew but If I was to brew daily then the humidity would be a major concern. Once a month is a little different. I like to shower without using the extractor fan because I don't like to be wet and cold. The walls in the bathroom are pretty soaked when I am finished but I open the doors and window when I am done and it dries quickly. If I was to do this 10 times a day the walls would get pretty disgusting I am sure. I realise wort moisture will be worse than plain old water moisture. |
This is more of a home ownership/maintenance question, so I can't really answer as I don't know how your house is built, how your brewing area is finished, what other things are in there that wouldn't like moisture (ex: it's killer on hardwood floors and most other wood products or furniture), and so forth. I really would not want to put so much water into the air that the walls are dripping however. This is why I use a fan and (equally important) a make-up air system too to bring fresh air in. I don't like to suck heated or cooled air out of the rest of the house when brewing as that would not be very energy efficient. Instead, when the brewery exhaust fan is running I have the brewery door closed so it's a closed system: Air is sucked directly from the outside to replace the air that is evacuated using the hood fan. Take a look at the ventilation article for complete details: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/ventilation
Good luck!
Kal
_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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fanboi21
Joined: 30 Dec 2014
Posts: 3
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| Link Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:08 am Post subject: |
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We have the same issue with the BK temp PId thought it worked in our first handful of batches it is now lagging behind the non Electric gauge only moving significantly once temp is around 190ish. Stirring seems to move the needle a bit but not sure why it worked and now not. I would also be curious if anyone has seen this. Thanks.
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