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lucianthorr
Joined: 26 Feb 2017
Posts: 19
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 Link Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:00 pm Post subject: Basic Sparging Question |
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Hi everyone. I feel like this has been answered in a hundred different places but I haven't happened upon the answer yet so here it goes...
I bought a used MoreBeer Tippy Dump sculpture a couple months ago that was converted to use an eHerms setup. It's pretty awesome and I've been blending Kal's Step-by-Step with the sculpture's instruction to make it through the three brews I've done so far on it. Before this I was just doing partial extract recipes so all-grain is relatively new.
So after a nice recirculated mash, we drain the mash tun into the boil kettle. We've got a nice grain bed and the tubing is wrapped along the inside so that everything was whirlpooling during the mash.
Now during the sparge, are we changing out that tubing to fill the mash tun the standard 1-2" above the bed? I see all these neat toys that sprinkle the water on the bed but if you've got a couple of inches of water protecting the bed, what use is the distributing the fresh sparge water? And why 1-2 inches above the bed? What if you accidentally drained the entire HLT into the mash tun all at once and then you're just managing the output into the kettle until you hit boil volume? (I might've done that on my last brew  )
My efficiency has been consistently 72% which seems peculiarly low for the HERMS setup so I'm guessing it's due to not nailing the sparge technique. I'm basically wondering if it sounds like I'm missing something conceptually or if anyone can explain what seems like a very strictly controlled sparge volume.
Thanks in advance.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi!
Take a look here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/mash-lauter-tun?page=3
From the BREW DAY STEP BY STEP: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step
Mashing:
| Quote: | | "The continuous recirculation filters the wort naturally using the husks in the grain bed (a process called 'vorlauf'). The wort slowly clears over time as the grain is mashed. Do not stir by hand or use any mechanical stirring devices from this point forward as this is counter productive and destroys this natural grain filter. After the grain is initially mixed with the strike water, it should never be disturbed again." |
Mash-out:
| Quote: | | "Press the UP button on the Hot Liquor Tank PID until the lower green number reads 168F. The Hot Liquor Tank will rise to 168F and the mash will follow. It takes approximately 20 minutes for the mash to reach mash-out temperature. There is no need to move any hoses or adjust any valves." |
Sparge:
| Quote: | | "Until the Hot Liquor Tank is empty, try and keep a minimum of 1-2 inches of water on top of the grain bed." |
| lucianthorr wrote: | | Now during the sparge, are we changing out that tubing to fill the mash tun the standard 1-2" above the bed? |
No. The tubing isn't touched after you start mashing until after you're done sparging.
| lucianthorr wrote: | | And why 1-2 inches above the bed? What if you accidentally drained the entire HLT into the mash tun all at once and then you're just managing the output into the kettle until you hit boil volume? (I might've done that on my last brew ) |
You want about 1-2" of water above because (a) you want to rinse all the grain so it should all be wet, and not too much because on some setups if there's too much water there's too much weight and it'll compact the grain bed causing poor flow. If you use the Blichmann false bottom / kettles / pumps I recommend and mill as recommended that can be ignored. I've done a good 12" above the grain bed and the excellent kettle/false bottom combo means you never have flow issues.
| lucianthorr wrote: | | I see all these neat toys that sprinkle the water on the bed but if you've got a couple of inches of water protecting the bed, what use is the distributing the fresh sparge water? |
As for the neat toys that sprinkle water, give this page a read: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/mash-lauter-tun?page=3
| Quote: | If you frequent other brewing websites you'll notice that there are countless methods for delivering sweet wort and sparge water to the top of the grain bed such as perforated manifolds and rotating arms. We find these an unnecessary complication that require extra work, extra cleaning, and may clog due to the small holes if some grain is inadvertently circulated. Permanently installed devices will also get in the way, making cleaning the MLT more difficult. Special rotating sparge arms cannot be used during the mash recirculation as the introduction of oxygen to the sweet wort by splashing needs to be minimized, so extra steps are required to add/remove these devices between the time the mash is complete and sparging begins.
Brewers argue that without these special perforated manifolds or rotating arms that channelling will occur. Channelling occurs when the sparge water used to rinse the grains does not pass through the grain bed evenly and leaves sugars behind, reducing the systems efficiency. In an ideal setup the sparge water will pass through the grain bed evenly from top to bottom, rinsing the sugar off every last bit of grain. In poorly designed setups, the liquid will create 'channels' from the top of the grain bed to the bottom. This typically happens when the liquid must pass through a smaller area at the bottom of the kettle such as a mesh hose. In our setup, the large perforated false bottom helps ensure that the sparge water passes evenly through the entire grain bed from top to bottom, washing all the sugar out in a piston like manner. Our setup repeatedly achieves high efficiency even though we 'only' use this simple piece of silicone hose for mash recirculation and sparging. Due to the simplicity of this setup, clogging is not possible and there are no extra parts to clean or to get in the way when you clean the kettle. Simpler is better!
Still not convinced? We admit those rotating sparge arms look pretty cool in action. Consider this: Sabco (makers of the Brew-Magic gas powered brewing systems) also use a simple silicone hose like ours for recirculating and sparging. They've sold hundreds if not thousands of their smaller multi-thousand dollar gas setups worldwide. If a $50 rotating sparge arm worked better we assume that they would be using it. Blichmann Engineering (the manufacturer of our BoilerMaker kettles) sells an optional sparge arm called the 'Auto Sparge'. It also uses a piece of silicone hose to recirculate and sparge in a manner similar to our setup.
The Blichmann 'Auto Sparge' arm also includes a valve and floating ball that stops/starts the delivery of sparge water as required to ensure that the rate of flow into the Mash/Lauter Tun matches that leaving the Hot Liquor Tank . While an interesting concept, we find that matching rates is very easy to do by hand using our two pumps. Keeping the setup simple results in no chance of clogs and less parts to clean. |
| lucianthorr wrote: | | My efficiency has been consistently 72% which seems peculiarly low for the HERMS setup so I'm guessing it's due to not nailing the sparge technique. |
Make sure to a take a good ~90 mins or so to sparge. Make sure the water is at least to the level of the grain. If you have a poor performing false bottom/kettle setup you may have channeling or side wall shunting which causes the water to flow only in a few spots and you're leaving sugars behind. If you mill too fine you may get poor flow.
When comparing efficiencies, make sure you're comparing the same one (mash/conversion efficiency, for example, and not brewhouse).
Good luck!
Kal
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lucianthorr
Joined: 26 Feb 2017
Posts: 19
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| Link Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I couldn't ask for a more thorough explanation. Thanks Kal!
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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fanboi21
Joined: 30 Dec 2014
Posts: 3
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| Link Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Hi, we have a 1bbl system set up identical to Kals set up, that we are finding quite a bit of channeling with. Our last batch ended up around 85% efficient but think there may be something lost with the channeling. We are usually doing half batches to test recipes so our thought is that the width of the large kettles requires more grain height to offset this channeling path of least resistance. We have the 17 gpm pumps and may be too aggressive with the flow. So is it better to lower the flow rate during mash to limit channeling or just brew more beer in each batch to increase grain bed height😁? As an aside we brought milling crush down to .025 and saw significant increase in efficiency with no loss of flow,i.e. No stuck mash. So there wouldn't be a need to lower pump rate except we may not be able to maintain consistent mash temp. And with higher rate we get more channeling. Thanks in advance.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| fanboi21 wrote: | | Hi, we have a 1bbl system set up identical to Kals set up, that we are finding quite a bit of channeling with. |
What kettles and false bottom are you using? If using Blichmann you should not have any channeling issues.
| fanboi21 wrote: | | Our last batch ended up around 85% efficient but think there may be something lost with the channeling. |
Is that mash efficiency? That's actually pretty good. What was the grist and %ABV of this beer?
| fanboi21 wrote: | | We have the 17 gpm pumps and may be too aggressive with the flow. |
What brand/model pumps are these?
Kal
_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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fanboi21
Joined: 30 Dec 2014
Posts: 3
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| Link Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Kettles are 55 gal for all three and yes the Blichmann false bottom. Yes, the 85% is the mash efficiency. Grist was Crisp-Maris Otter 33 lbs and 1.25 lb of carafoam. ABV at 75% was to be 6.4 and OG at 1.067. We ended at 85% and 7.5 ABV and 1.075 OG. Pumps are March AC-5B-MD 17gpm.
Even with the false bottom there was no stuck sparse but potentially because of channeling. If I had to guess the mash depth was about 6-8 inches deep in this brew but the channeling was occurring at the end of the recirculating hose around about 1/2 of the circumference of the kettle where the depth was about half. Seems like the flow of the recirculating wort was swirling and creating that channel.
Thanks for the quick replies!
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