Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
Home ]   [ Products ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ What's New ]   [ About / Contact  ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ

HOW-TO: Making a yeast starter
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Yeast & Fermentation
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: HOW-TO: Making a yeast starter Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!




Parts:

, Adventures in Homebrewing, MoreBeer, OntarioBeerKegs

Using our links helps support our site at no additional cost to you - we thank you!

Making a yeast starter is simply a fancy way of saying that you're going to grow more yeast. When fermenting beer, the more sugar you have (i.e. the higher the alcohol content), the larger the batch, the lower the fermentation temperature, the more yeast cells you need. Since yeast is expensive compared to the other ingredients used, many brewers will simply step up the amount of yeast by making a starter instead. You do this by making a small batch of lower gravity (1.036 - 1.040) beer in a flask by boiling Light dried malt extract. Lower gravity is best as it maximizes healthy yeast growth. The more yeast you need, the larger the starter you need.

Note: Yeast pitch rates and starter sizes are controversial. Do what works for you, but the steps below are what I feel over the years has helped me product extremely consistent beer with excellent quality, especially for lighter tasting lagers.



General steps:

1. Figure out the starter size you need. Size is usually denoted in litres (L). The higher the gravity / larger the batch / lower the fermentation temperature, the larger the starter you need as you need to grow more yeast. The larger starter, the more Light dried malt extract you'll use. Here's a great calculator for figuring out starter size and the amount of extract required: https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
Various pitch rates are available depending on what type of beer you're making. I go with the following:
- Pro Brewer 0.75 (for ales under 1.060)
- Pro Brewer 1.00 (for ales over 1.060)
- Pro Brewer 1.25 (for hybrid beers below 1.060 [Kolsch/Altbier/Cali Common])
- Pro Brewer 1.50 (lagers under 1.060 or hybrid beers above 1.060)
- Pro Brewer 2.0 (lagers over 1.060)
Once calculated make note of the starter size recommended (in litres) and the amount of Light dried malt extract required (in oz).

2. Boil the Light dried malt extract for a few minutes in the 3.5 quart saucepan with enough water to melt and boil the extract. Don't worry about the exact amount of water. This is quick and easy with the 1100W induction cooktop. No need to boil long, watch for boil-overs. Only a few minutes is required as all you want to do is sanitize, we're not making beer here.

3. Dump the hot wort into a flask that already has a bit of cold water in it, and then fill the flask with more cold water until you reach the recommended starter size you wrote down earlier. It's not critical that you be exact here. If the total is a bit more or less you'll be slightly above or below 1.036 gravity. That's fine. Loosely place a piece of aluminum foil over the neck of the flask. If required, place the flask in a fridge for a few hours to cool to around 72F room temperature (an ice bath can be used too to chill in minutes). Stick-on LCD strip thermometers are a surprisingly accurate method for measuring the wort temperature as long as the liquid is in motion (give the flask a swirl for a few seconds for an accurate reading).

4. Once around 72F room temperature place the flask on the stir plate, remove the aluminum foil, pitched the yeast, drop the stir bar in, place the aluminum foil back over the neck of the flask (loose), and run for 24-48 hours. Starters are usually fermented at room temperature or slightly above (even for lagers) as we're making yeast, not beer here. A 75-78F fermentation temperature is ideal. The stirring actually helps create some heat to keep the temperature in the ideal range when making starters at room temperature. Active fermentation will also raise the temperature a degree or two. No need for a heated stir plate. The temperature can be easily (and accurately) monitored with a stick-on LCD strip thermometer as the liquid is in motion.

5. When fermentation is done the wort colour will be lighter, the krausen (foam) will have fallen completely, and the temperature will be a degree or two below the maximum during active fermentation. This usually takes 24-48 hours but can take longer if the yeast is more than a few months old. When fermentation appears complete I usually leave it for another 8-12 hours just to be safe. the In the picture above the WLP007 is done (ran for ~36 hours). The Wyeast 1318 still has ~24 hours to go on the stir plate.

6. Place the flask in a fridge for 12-24 hours to allow the yeast to settle out (keeping the aluminum foil on the neck).

7. On brew day carefully pour off (decant) the wort and discard leaving the yeast behind in the flask. We only want the yeast. We don't want to throw off the taste of the new beer with this starter 'beer' or water it down. Taste the starter 'beer' if you want before discarding and you'll see why you don't want this in your beer. Wink Add a few cups of your newly created fresh wort and swirl the flask to help 'unstick' the yeast from the bottom. Pitch the yeast in your newly brewed wort.

Hints:

- Instead of using Light dried malt extract some all-grain brewers will make an unhopped 1.036 gravity wort made entirely with a lighter grain (such as domestic 2-row) to store and use later for making starters. This is fine, but be careful storing wort for any extended period as you risk botulism if done improperly. Some brewers will use a pressure cooker/canner to store their wort.

- If you're finding that you need a starter that is larger than your flask size, you'll have to go through all of the above steps more than once (or use a larger flask). For example, if a 3L starter is required and your flask is only 2L, go through all of the steps to make a 2L starter and then start over and make a 1L starter with all of the yeast from the first starter. This of course takes longer so you need to plan ahead.

- Some people prefer to boil directly in the flask over a stove. That's fine, but never use a flask directly on an electric stove with coil elements without some form of heat diffuser as the concentrated heat can crack the flask making for an ungodly mess that will ban you from doing anything brewing related in the kitchen ever again. Cracking is more likely to occur if the flask is only 'student' grade and not 'laboratory' grade (most reasonably priced flasks are only 'student' grade and may contain tiny air bubbles that can cause the glass to shatter at extreme temperatures). Boiling directly over gas or ceramic/glass stove can be done but a laboratory grade flask is recommended. Placing the flask in a saucepan with a few inches of water works too and allows you to use any grade flask on any stove-top, and if the flask does crack the saucepan will hopefully catch most of the mess.

- I've never been overly comfortable with giant flasks sitting on small stir plates as things do sometimes vibrate slightly and some yeast can get pretty chunky as it reproduces (like WLP002) which may eventually throw the stir bar, causing more bumps. I use a heavy lab support stand with ways to hold the flask, just to be safe. I a;so tend to run the stir plate pretty fast, mostly based on Kai's study here which says faster results in more yeast growth. Last thing you want is a couple of litres of sticky wort dumped all over the counter a day or two before you want to brew. The stand I use is perfect as it comes with a retort ring which is perfect for a 2L flask and a clamp that is perfect for larger 5L flasks. Large stir plates are available like the Maelstrom but they're huge, expensive, come with features I don't need, and take up a ton of room. Plus, lab stuff just looks cooler. Wink

- When you're done making the starter and want to get the stir bar out of the flask for a second starter or before you pitch, use a rare earth magnet on the outside of the flask to pull it up the side. While there's no harm in accidentally dumping the stir bar into the fermenter (we've all done it), you will forget it's in there and will likely end up pouring it down the drain when you go to wash the fermenter in a few weeks. Always good to have a spare stir bar or two.

Pictures / Videos:


Stir plate in action making a 2L starter. Video (c) TheElectricBrewery.com


Works really well with a massive 5L flask with a 2" stir bar too (water test). Video (c) TheElectricBrewery.com


Making a large 4L starter with a 2" stir bar. Video (c) TheElectricBrewery.com

Getting a nice vortex in this 5L flask right to the bottom which helps oxygenate and maximize yeast reproduction. With a large flask like this there's less chance that you'll need to multi-step those insanely large starters for high gravity beers (or you may end up making less steps). Also useful for yeasts that tend to foam up a lot (lots of krausen). The stand with the clamp/retort ring is an absolute requirement with a larger flask like this. I wouldn't trust it without one.


Making the yeast starter during an experimental batch of Electric Hop Candy Jr (part 1: boiling water). Video (c) TheElectricBrewery.com


Making the yeast starter during an experimental batch of Electric Hop Candy Jr (part 2: pitching yeast). Video (c) TheElectricBrewery.com


White Labs WLP565 Belgian Saison Yeast yeast settling out in the fridge the night before brew day. Photo (c) TheElectricBrewery.com

Chilling the wort/yeast mixture lets the yeast settle out and separate from the wort. It usually only takes 12-24 hours for the yeast to settle out. Every yeast is different. Before pitching, the wort is decanted. We won't want to throw off the flavour of the beer we're going to be fermenting or water it down with low ABV wort.


Pitching yeast (after decanting the wort) into a Kölsch. Picture (c) TheElectricBrewery.com

More videos:

Making a 5L WY2007 starter for a lager: https://www.instagram.com/p/BcDqYm-AGGY/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery
Chilling a 5L WY2007 starter to pitch temp: https://www.instagram.com/p/BcDtPPJA1cl/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery
5L WY2007 starter at start of fermenting: https://www.instagram.com/p/BcEGjzrAHX_/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery
5L WY2007 starter at high krausen: https://www.instagram.com/p/BcGvOSUguGR/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery

Kal


_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:56 pm; edited 71 times in total
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Ozarks Mountain Brew



Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 536
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri

Drinking: Amber Bock

Working on: Irish Ale, Pale ale


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive worked with WLP007 before and its a beast of its own, huge flakes
_________________
http://www.ozarksmountainbrew.com

Drinking - Nutty Professor Ale, Fresh Squeezed Pale Ale, Ozarks Winter Bock
Fermenting - Penguin IIPA
On Deck -
Back to top
dp Brewing Company



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 372
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Lagunitas IPA Clone, Belgian Waffle Strong Ale, The Pale Lady, Robust Porter, Choco Porter, Chocolate Taco, Strawberry Wheat

Working on: Farmhouse Cider


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
Ive worked with WLP007 before and its a beast of its own, huge flakes


Same here, I use it for my last batch of wheat beer, I had to build it up with a starter. Looked like snow flakes. I got a video if anyone is interested of the yeast dropping in the sight glass while in the fermentor.
Back to top
View user's photo album (2 photos)
JayBo



Joined: 23 Oct 2016
Posts: 30



PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this Kal.

I've been brewing for years, own all sorts of equipment, but the one thing I never picked up was a stir plate. Happy yeast=happy beer, so maybe its time to bite the stir bar. Would it work with a 5000ml flask?
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayBo wrote:
Would it work with a 5000ml flask?

I don't see why not. The stir plate seems strong enough. In fact, I have a couple of 5000ml ones on order myself. Link:

Scientific 5000ml Narrow Mouth Erlenmeyer Flask (Buy at: Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk)

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
JayBo



Joined: 23 Oct 2016
Posts: 30



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Kal, I picked up the same setup and so far with the 2000ml flask, it works great. Thank you for the tip!
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome! Enjoy!

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a video with a massive 5L flask with a 2" stir bar: https://www.instagram.com/p/BROBX-lFe8P/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery

Getting a nice vortex right to the bottom which helps oxygenate and maximize yeast reproduction (Braukaiser.com reference). With a large flask like this there's less change of needing to multi-step those insanely large starters for high gravity beers.

I've now updated my original post with a video and pictures of a 5L flask.

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:43 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Walts Malt



Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Farmington, MN


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
With a large flask like this there's No need to multi-step those insanely large starters for high gravity beers.

Kal


How high of an OG do you think you can pull off with just one starter in a 5000 ml flask? I'm wondering as my next beer up is a 1.109 OG Belgian Dark Strong (Denny Conn's Batch 400). Based on some websites, it's suggesting I'll need to step it up at least once, if not twice. That was based on a calculator at Brewersfriend.com that suggested I would need between 1 and 1.25 billion cells for 10.25 gallons of 1.109 wort. I'm all ears if I do not need to mess around with steps.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walts Malt wrote:
How high of an OG do you think you can pull off with just one starter in a 5000 ml flask?

These things affect how many yeast cells you need:

- Fermentation temp / yeast strain (Lagers typically need x2 as many cells as ales)
- Gravity
- Batch size

Quote:
I'm wondering as my next beer up is a 1.109 OG Belgian Dark Strong (Denny Conn's Batch 400). Based on some websites, it's suggesting I'll need to step it up at least once, if not twice. That was based on a calculator at Brewersfriend.com that suggested I would need between 1 and 1.25 billion cells for 10.25 gallons of 1.109 wort. I'm all ears if I do not need to mess around with steps.

You're off by a factor of 1000. You need about 1000-1250 billion cells for that. Assuming it's an ale yeast (which I'm pretty sure it would be).

Assuming the yeast was made today (not likely) you'll start with about 100B cells in one pack. A 5L starter of 1.036 strength would get you to 819M cells. Bump it up slightly to 1.040 and you'd have about 900B cells. Still a bit short. You don't want to go much above 1.040 for the starter as it stresses the yeast and you'd need about a 1.058 starter for this guy assuming very fresh yeast (unlikely) and a good funnel during the starter to maximize growth.

I'd use a 5L starter at 1.040, put it in the fridge overnight, decant, and then grow again with a smaller ~4L starter. It's a massive beer. So there are still times you need to step up! At least it's not 4-5 times. Wink Brewing 5 gallon batches would be single step however.

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Walts Malt



Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Farmington, MN


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Walts Malt wrote:
How high of an OG do you think you can pull off with just one starter in a 5000 ml flask?


You're off by a factor of 1000. You need about 1000-1250 billion cells for that. Assuming it's an ale yeast (which I'm pretty sure it would be).

Kal


I guess being an actuary hasn't really translated into the brewing world. In my head to was thinking 1 trillion, but it definitely didn't translate.

Thanks for the confirmation on the stepped starter. I have some starter wort in the pressure cooker right now getting ready for this beer.
Back to top
Walts Malt



Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Farmington, MN


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've placed the stir plate and the support stand in my Amazon wish list. I noticed the stir bar listed has the ring around it in the middle. My current stir plate (purchased years ago from someone who was making them and selling them online) has trouble with a stir bar with the ring in the middle and it generally throws the stir bar. Have you experience any problems with this? I don't get anywhere near the vortex your videos show. I know that it only needs a little vortex, but it has a hard time pushing a 3-4L starting in my 5000L flask.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walts Malt wrote:
My current stir plate (purchased years ago from someone who was making them and selling them online) has trouble with a stir bar with the ring in the middle and it generally throws the stir bar. Have you experience any problems with this?

Nope! Some of my stir bars have the raised ring, some don't. No problems.

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Ozarks Mountain Brew



Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 536
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri

Drinking: Amber Bock

Working on: Irish Ale, Pale ale


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive made several stir plates and not all stir bars are the same, you really have to match one brand up with your stir plate,too much magnaticity is just as bad as not enough with some stir bars
_________________
http://www.ozarksmountainbrew.com

Drinking - Nutty Professor Ale, Fresh Squeezed Pale Ale, Ozarks Winter Bock
Fermenting - Penguin IIPA
On Deck -
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
Ive made several stir plates and not all stir bars are the same, you really have to match one brand up with your stir plate,too much magnaticity is just as bad as not enough with some stir bars

I think if you buy a good stir plate it's less of an issue. I have 3-4 sizes of stir bars from various manufacturers and they all work well for me on this stir plate.

Making your own stir plate can be really easy but it's another one of those instances where I had heard enough times from brewers about issues getting them to spin the stir bar reliably that I simply bought one that was proven to be reliable from a company that's likely sold tens of thousands.

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A video of my large 4L starter currently in the works for an upcoming Belgian Saison:


Making a large 4L starter with a 2" stir bar.

Link: https://www.instagram.com/p/BSM7GpYlxIo/?taken-by=theelectricbrewery

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
g8tors



Joined: 05 Oct 2011
Posts: 210



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought this stir plate and I'm using it right now for the first time. It came with 2 stir bars but I'm not using them since I already had some. The first stir bar I used was one with a ring on it and it kept throwing that off to the side. The other one I tried had no ring and worked fine. So not all stir bars work. I will say that this seems to be a very well made stir plate and I'm happy with the purchase. It turns a lot faster then my home made one from a computer fan and magnet from a hard drive.

Scott
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 8419
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: American Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Janet's Brown, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison, Kölsch

Working on: Kölsch, Janet's Brown Ale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I have about a dozen stir bars of various size and the all work for me in my 2L and 5L flasks. One thing to watch out for is to make sure that the flask has a true flat bottom - not all do- some have a bit of a hump that goes up in the middle like a hill, and that tends to throw stir bars easier. Glad you're liking the stir plate!

Kal

_________________
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
g8tors



Joined: 05 Oct 2011
Posts: 210



PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll check the flask when I'm done with the starter to see if it has that hump. Yea this stir plate is a beast
Back to top
g8tors



Joined: 05 Oct 2011
Posts: 210



PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the Karter Scientific 2L flask from Amazon that you linked to above. The bottom looks pretty flat to me so must be the stir bar.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Yeast & Fermentation All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Support our site by purchasing through this link. We thank you!

Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group