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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: Boil Kettle temperature probe problem |
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I brewed a Berliner Weiss yesterday because I wanted to try kettle souring. My plan was to make the wort as usual, transfer to the BK, boil for 15 minutes to sanitize the wort, chill, and then hold it at 95' F without recirculating. The goal was to have as little lactobacillus contact the rest of the brewery as possible.
Everything went as planned and I got the wort to 95' F. All valves were off, no pumps were running and the heating element seemed to be acting right. I know you're not supposed to walk away during brew day, but I felt everything was stable and I had to run my son to hockey and picked up dinner, and came back about an hour later.
When I got back the control panel said the BK was at 108'. I expected a degree or two of drift occasionally, but I thought it was strange that it was more than 10' off, so I touched the pot and it was HOT. The kettle thermometer (Blichmann) and my TheraPen confirmed it at 142' F.
I've noticed in the past that sometimes when I'm heating to boil, the wort will be near boiling (foop forming and steaming) but the PID reads 120 (or some other ridiculously low number). If I tap the temp probe inside the pot with a spoon, the reading will then jump up to 205 or whatever. This doesn't happen all the time, but often enough that I watch for it so I don't accidentally boil over.
I tried the tap this time (Rule #2 - Double Tap - anyone? ), and it did jump to 140 - but only briefly before it quickly dropped back to the low 90's and fired up the element again, even though it was already way too hot. I switched the temperature probe wiring and power to heating element to the HLT plugs on the control panel, and that PID read the same things.
I guess this is a long story asking if my kettle probe is bad. I've never tried to do anything other than boil with it in Manual mode. I had attributed the reading problems during boiling to air bubbles on the probe tip causing inaccurate readings but maybe it has never really been working right?
I've brewed less than 20 batches on this system, so wouldn't think that it has been over used. Anyone else have these problems with the boil probe? Any suggestions other than replacing it?
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David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Posts: 139 Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Mac,
The first thing to check is the cable. I had a similar issue (different symptoms) with a fluctuating temp reading and there was a bad connection in one of my cables. Change cables, and change which PID you plug into, separately of course to see if you can isolate where the problem is. The temperature probe itself is a fairly solid piece of equipment with very little to go wrong, the cable has a bunch of individual solder joins just waiting to go bad.
Good Luck, David
_________________ David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Boil Kettle temperature probe problem |
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McGruber wrote: | I guess this is a long story asking if my kettle probe is bad. |
Sounds like a bad connection somewhere between the actual sensor in the probe tip, and the PID. Like David mentioned, swapping parts with others is the way to figure out where the issue is.
as an aside, if a PID ever displays 'orAL' or the temperature's jumping around wildly then the PID is unable to communicate with the temperature probe tip.
One place to check is the connection point between the temp probe cable and the stainless temp probe tip - it may be damaged. It may be damage on either side or both sides. This can happen if one is not careful when disconnecting/reconnecting the cable and the connectors are twisted and or turned when connecting them instead of lining up the tabs and pushing them together straight. There’s a little tab you need to line up when you mate the two halves together. To connect/disconnect, the tabs need to be lined up and pushed together, they should NEVER BE TWISTED/TURNED. If you twist/turn them to make a connection you may damage one or both ends. Twisting/turning can pull apart the wires inside the connector.
If swapping cables does not help I would recommend replacing the entire assembly (probe tip and cable).
Replacement cables as well as replacement cables with probe tips are available for order here:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/custom-temperature-probes
If twisting/turning caused damage and you are handy with a soldering iron, you may be able to easily repair the probe yourself. Remove the four small screws from the back of the probe and slide the resistor and cable end out of the probe (you should not have to remove it from the pot or Tee). You will see one end of the resistor soldered to pin #2, and the other side soldered to either 1 or 3 with a jumper between the two. One of those points is most likely broken and/or making intermittent contact. A quick re-soldering is all that is needed.
Quote: | I had attributed the reading problems during boiling to air bubbles on the probe tip causing inaccurate readings but maybe it has never really been working right? |
Air bubbles shouldn't do anything.
Cheers,
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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I should mention that I ended up transferring the wort to HLT, and it's holding temp fine.
Because I was monkeying around with hoses and spoons and thermaPen's and pH meters in the BK at around 100' to 140' F, I decided to ensure an infection free environment and re-boil the wort. Farewell two vials of Lacto - it was probably roasted at 140' anyway.
Luckily I had a third vial that I was going to use to create a kettle sour that I was going to blend into a "sour" imperial pumpkin beer that, well - isn't. It has Brett character, but no tartness. I've since discovered this is likely due to the high hop load and alcohol level - both things that lacto specifically doesn't like. I'll make a sour batch and blend to keep the sour aspect.
I boiled in the HLT, cooled through the CFC while recirculating back into the HLT, purged with CO2 and pitched my final vial of lacto. The clear problem with this set-up is the HLT doesn't read temp unless wort is flowing past the valve, so I now have two hoses, a pump, and my HLT that all have Lacto in it, which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place. I figured it was this scenario though, or I dump the batch.
Last edited by McGruber on Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Kal and David. As I mentioned in the first post 5th paragraph (it wasn't worded well), I disconnected the BK probe wire from the back and plugged in the HLT sensor cable. I then switched the BK heating element cable to the HLT power plug. So I switched everything over to the HLT PID and had the same problem. That's what led me to believe it was the sensor, and not the cable or the PID.
I need to finish cleaning the brewery today (it was a long day yesterday) and test the pH and all. I'll see what I can do with the probe tip, thanks for the suggestion. I'll hook up the BK cable to the HLT too and see if that changes anything, but I suspect it's the probe.
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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe not the best place for this question: After I dip my Hanna pHep pH meter into Lacto slurry, can I StarSan it? Clearly it's designed to test acid levels, but I've only ever rinsed it with RO water.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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McGruber wrote: | Thanks Kal and David. As I mentioned in the first post 5th paragraph (it wasn't worded well) |
Sorry - I missed that part.
Quote: | I disconnected the BK probe wire from the back and plugged in the HLT sensor cable. |
Are you disconnecting the probe cable at the probe end at the kettle or at the control panel end.
Quote: | I then switched the BK heating element cable to the HLT power plug. |
No need to do that. It's the temp probe that has an issue.
Quote: | So I switched everything over to the HLT PID and had the same problem. That's what led me to believe it was the sensor, and not the cable or the PID. |
Most likely.
Quote: | I'll see what I can do with the probe tip, thanks for the suggestion. |
Let us know how it goes!
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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McGruber wrote: | Maybe not the best place for this question: After I dip my Hanna pHep pH meter into Lacto slurry, can I StarSan it? Clearly it's designed to test acid levels, but I've only ever rinsed it with RO water. |
I don't know. I've never done that myself.
I don't think I would. Your pH meter doesn't need to be sanitized as it's never going into beer or wort that will be consumed without at least boiling first. For cooled beer or wort you shouldn't be dumping the sample back in anyway.
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Boil Kettle temperature probe problem |
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kal wrote: | if a PID ever displays 'orAL' or the temperature's jumping around wildly then the PID is unable to communicate with the temperature probe tip. |
This has never happened unless I have everything disconnected for cleaning.
kal wrote: | One place to check is the connection point between the temp probe cable and the stainless temp probe tip - it may be damaged. |
All the pins are straight and clean.
kal wrote: | If swapping cables does not help I would recommend replacing the entire assembly (probe tip and cable). |
I just tried all three temperature cables on the probe tip that is circulating wort in the HLT. All read exactly 95' F and correspond to the kettles' hard thermometer. So I still don't think it's the cable side. I'll try the BK next.
kal wrote: | You may be able to easily repair the probe yourself. You will see one end of the resistor soldered to pin #2, and the other side soldered to either 1 or 3 with a jumper between the two. One of those points is most likely broken and/or making intermittent contact. A quick re-soldering is all that is needed. |
Everything in there looks perfect. Straight, solid solders, no wiggle or breaks, clean.
kal wrote: | Air bubbles shouldn't do anything. |
I wouldn't think so, but I'm not sure why else tapping it has fixed the problem in the past. I agree that would make me think that there was a loose connection in the probe tip, but it looks as solid as it could be.
Last edited by McGruber on Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | I don't think I would. Your pH meter doesn't need to be sanitized as it's never going into beer or wort that will be consumed without at least boiling first. For cooled beer or wort you shouldn't be dumping the sample back in anyway. |
Good points. You're right, and I don't add tested samples back to the pot.
I'm still curious from a brewery hygiene standpoint. It is used to test acids after all, and some of the storage solutions are 4.0 pH. Not sure what StarSan comes out at. I'll email Hanna and get back if I find out.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Boil Kettle temperature probe problem |
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McGruber wrote: | kal wrote: | One place to check is the connection point between the temp probe cable and the stainless temp probe tip - it may be damaged. |
All the pins are straight and clean. |
That's normal - it's inside that the damage usually occurs. This can happen if the connectors are twisted/turned when connecting (they should simply be pushed together).
McGruber wrote: | Everything in there looks perfect. Straight, solid solders, no wiggle or breaks, clean. |
Ok, then it's ok on the inside too. I'd probably replace the probe.
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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McGruber wrote: | I'm still curious from a brewery hygiene standpoint. It is used to test acids after all, and some of the storage solutions are 4.0 pH. Not sure what StarSan comes out at. I'll email Hanna and get back if I find out. |
Yeah, you think you'd be able to stick the probe in just about anything. But since I don't know, I don't want to say that.
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | I disconnected the BK probe wire from the back and plugged in the HLT sensor cable.
Are you disconnecting the probe cable at the probe end at the kettle or at the control panel end. |
Sorry, I missed this post. I disconnected it from the pot, not at the panel. And all three temp cables read fine on the HLT.
kall wrote: | I then switched the BK heating element cable to the HLT power plug. = No need to do that. It's the temp probe that has an issue.l |
True, but I also needed to control the heating element so I just switched it all.
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McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 237 Location: Idaho
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: | Yeah, you think you'd be able to stick the probe in just about anything. But since I don't know, I don't want to say that. |
Well that was fast! From Hanna:
You can use the StarSan since it is food safe I do not think it will hurt
the meter or glass electrode.
Best Regards,
Pete Smith
Tech Service Representative
800-426-6287 ext. 134
tech@hannainst.com
www.hannainst.com
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Wow indeed! Love it when companies are responsive like that.
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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