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FBC Fermentation Cabinets
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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All the glycol lines got wrapped in Rubber Pipe Insulation:
3/4" for most of the lines
1/2" for the drops into the cabients
1" where needed to surround the pipe adapters and solenoid.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Armacell-3-4-in-x-6-ft-Rubber-Self-Seal-Pipe-Wrap-Insulation-HST07812/100585113

Also, 1" Rubber Pipe Insulation for T's, 90's etc. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-in-Rubber-Pipe-Insulation-Pre-Slit-Elbow-HPF11812EL2/204760824

I then wrapped everything in 2" Corrugated Tile Tape. http://www.homedepot.com/p/DI-2-in-x-50-ft-Corrugated-Tile-Tape-BT02R050B/207006357 I can't really explain why, other than I liked the gloss look to it, and it 'provides leak resistant joints'. It's maybe not "the ideal" material, but I couldn't figure out what the industry standard was and I figured it would hold back condensation. It works fine and looks nice.

I haven't really mentioned how the glycol line is plumbed yet. It's kind of hard to explain, other than it's a constant circulation loop, unless a PID on a chamber calls for cooling. There's a saying I ran into over-and-over for glycol plumbing in breweries - "First In, Last Out". So the first unit that gets glycol is the unit that returns last.

So for me, the far-right unit (Beer bottle Cellar) gets fed glycol (blue line) first - and then to the left the next blue line (Wine Bottle Cellar) and so on. So just to the right (nearly against the right wall) of the Beer Bottle Cellar is a Sharkbite 3/4" cap. That makes it the "First in and Last out". Return flow moves to the left over the other cabinets where those red lines also join in. It then all flows back to a common return and to the glycol unit. I've attached the schematic I found online and used as a reference.

*It's hard to read in this picture, but see where the first fermenter on the left has arrows pointing to the lines and says "First in" and "Last out"?



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Glycol flows opposite in this drawing than it does in my cabinets. The fermenter on the left is getting glycol first in this example.
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Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finishing up wiring:

The solenoid was wired, and I ran the wire through the back of the control box. I bought a small rubber plug from Home Depot and drilled a hole in the center of it, pushed the wire through it and then inserted it all in the box. I don't expect condensation or glycol to run down the wire, but I took the precaution.

Next all the wires from inside the box were fed into the control box. I found the best way was to bundle them all together and tape them to a leader wire that I threaded through the hole, then guide and pull it all up at the same time (it's a tight fit and creates a good seal).

Then the control boxes were plugged into their power cords. I took one wrap around the vertical glycol bundle with the power cord, and it works well as strain relief.



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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't sure how much CO2 pressure would develop in the cabinet from fermentation, but I designed these cabinets to be pretty air tight. I'd even be willing to bet they'd hold a certain amount of liquid. It's doubtful enough pressure would build to damage the glass, but I opted to vent my blow-off tubes to the exterior of the cabinet.

I did do my first fermentation in what is now the wine cellar - which doesn't have a blow off hole, and I did note that blow-off activity noticeably picked up after I had opened the door after several days of fermentation (there's some experimentation being done on the pro-level of not allowing blow-off to retain hop aroma).

Anyway. I drilled a hole all the way through the cabinet from the top with a 2 3/8" bi-metal hole bit, and carved out a little bit of the foam insulation and a little bit of the 1/4" plywood with a dremel tool and abrasive bit. Next, a snap in grommet was placed in the top and the bottom, which seals into place and allows for my existing blow off tubes to fit through, while creating a good seal. I put a small amount of CIP lube on the end of the tube before pushing it through the holes. Otherwise it doesn't want to go.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/123/3869/=163luqi
Left side of the web page, "Snap In", 1" $1.38 ea Item#: 63595K36 (2 per cabinet)

1 3/8" OD Braided Vinyl Tubing - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-3-8in-O-D-x-1-in-I-D-x-25-ft-PVC-Braided-Vinyl-Tube-1000017961/207170818

9 qt Stainless Steel Bucket (blow-off bucket with StarSan solution) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WSVDC5O/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=f7c3e219609d77d25579753de594df75

Short length of aluminum rod helps hold tubing in bucket and bucket in place.



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Inside the cabinet
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Exterior top of cabinet
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The RTC thermocouple is down at the bottom of the 20" thermowell, attached by tri-clamp fittings to the top of the Tee.
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Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:19 am; edited 4 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brewery build is three staged.

First stage was the brewery build - http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28523
Second stage was this - fermentation control
Third stage will be serving.

My next project is installing the four Perlick faucets I have into the Keezer (I still need to get the shanks) and mounting shelving above the keezer and work desk to improve my storage situation. Should be easy enough.

I also bought a back bar tap tower/ keg cooler for dirt cheap off a restaurant that was out of business. It needs some renovation, so I'll keep in touch. More projects to show off later!!



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Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:28 am; edited 2 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that's about it. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Thanks to my wife, who agreed to let me do this project - but wasn't sure what it actually meant (honestly, I didn't either)...She still shakes her head and says 'I...had...no...idea'.

Thanks to my many great friends and family members for sharing their thoughts, tools, expertise and their hands in this project (and who shook their heads and told me/ looked at me like I was crazy).

I couldn't find much info online about this specific project when I came up with the idea, how to wire it, how a 24v based system would work, how to run glycol, how to program a PID, etc., so my hope is that someone will find my almost two years of thinking, researching, tinkering, wandering the aisles of Home Depot, and troubleshooting either A.) Helpful, or B.) A cautionary tale. Do the same as me and/ or make it your own, and I hope it works out. Post pictures! Cheers! Mug

McGruber



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Here's my first rough draft of what was about to happen...
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Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McGruber wrote:
Thanks to my wife, who agreed to let me do this project - but wasn't sure what it actually meant (honestly, I didn't either)...She still shakes her head and says 'I...had...no...idea'.

Ha! That sounds vaguely familiar. Wink

Thanks for sharing your information - I hope it helps many!

Kal

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perogi




Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 850
Location: NH

Drinking: Perogi Pale, NEIPA, Nutter's Crossing Nut Brown Ale, Edmund Fitzgerald Porter Clone

Working on: Max's Maibock


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much for putting all of this together - really REALLY impressive!
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mvakoc




Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Evergreen, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How well do you find the radiator cooling to be? Reason I ask is I'm in the process of building something similar. For beer serving I have four glycol supply/return valves that will eventually be hooked up to individual brite tanks.

Until I spend the money I was going to make one big insulated cabinet and use the radiator/fan system like you have. I'm hoping that one radiator will be able to keep this insulated, 5'Hx6'Wx2'D cool.

From your experience, do you think this would be enough? Or would multiple radiators be needed for that space.

Here's a pic if it helps understand what I'm doing:



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Vertical glycol lines that would be enclosed in a insulated "box" with a radiator/fan like yours to do the cooling
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mvakoc wrote:
How well do you find the radiator cooling to be? I'm hoping that one radiator will be able to keep this insulated, 5'Hx6'Wx2'D cool. From your experience, do you think this would be enough? Or would multiple radiators be needed for that space.

I totally think the transmission cooler and fans I used would cool that space just fine. Looks like your space is about three times the volume of one of my cabinets, but I was impressed by how quickly my system chilled (12 gallons of 86' F water by 40' F in two days). You can expect 4 bright tanks in a larger space to take longer, but once it's at temp it will hold well.
Experiment here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30538


The variables for you will be:
1.) How well that area is insulated. You'll need to frame that area out, make sure it's well insulated and air-tight.
2.) How cold you want it (lagers? Crash chilling brite tanks?)
3.) How good your airflow is over the transmission cooler. ParadiseBrew linked to this fin cooler assembly:
https://www.amazon.com/Mishimoto-MMOC-F-Transmission-Cooler-Electric/dp/B0035Z3NUG/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1485540925&sr=1-32&keywords=Tube+and+Fin+Transmission+Cooler&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=f4a6dedb8a140849012df6e9d49411e9
I don't have any numbers on how much better this system would work, but if you put my small transmission and computer fans in that space, compared to this unit - I'm sure this one would cool faster. But for getting to a temp relatively quickly, and holding it there I think my set up would be just fine.


Last edited by McGruber on Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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mvakoc




Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Evergreen, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your feedback. This thread has been tremendously helpful in my design.
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brewslinger




Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you please post your dimensions?
Or did I miss that information in the thread?

I guess basic dimensions based on fitting the Blichmann would make it at least 24" wide?
Exterior: 24" x 24" x 50?
Interior: 20" x 20" x 48 ?
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brewslinger wrote:
Would you please post your dimensions? Or did I miss that information in the thread?

I didn't say since I just made them fit the wall that I had. Mine are (exterior dimensions) 67" tall, 28" wide and 25" deep. The door opening is about 19" X 58". Just make sure you leave a little extra room in the door opening. I would have had nice wiggle room getting the fermenter in and out, but when I framed it out I didn't account for the thickness of the white poly-fiberboard and trim and now the opening is tighter than I would have liked.

I think any dimensions you wanted would work, so just measure out what equipment you have and leave at least 1" on the sides of the door and room for the glycol/ transmission cooler assembly. You can make them however you see fit. I made them tall enough to be able to handle two 7 gallon Blichmann's conical fermenters stacked (which I don't own), or a 26 gallon Blichmann extension on my 14.5 gallon ones (also don't own) and still not run into my overhead brewery lights. Got measurements from Blichmann's website on fermenator dimensions and built in a little wiggle room. I also needed to fit them through my non-standard width basement door, which dictated their depth. Others will probably not have all the restrictions I did.

I hope that helps.
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brewslinger




Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the dimensions and the very detailed response.
I agree that the dimensions are arbitrary to what each situation requires.

I currently have a dual chamber fermentation chamber. Like yours it uses a glycol chiller (in my case homemade) which used transmission radiators to pull the heat out of each chamber. I had sized mine to hold the window ac / glycol chiller underneath
the unit with each chamber sitting on top of each other. It uses pond pumps to pump up to each radiator on demand. The chambers themselves are basically yours turned sideways (25 wide x 28 deep) although they are only 30" tall.

I am now in the process of designing a new workshop which will have a dedicated space for the brewery as well and I thought it might be a good time to think about how I want to manage storage and build new chambers. I now need a long term temperature managed zone for storage of homemade wine in addition to temporary management of the brewing process that I previously needed.
Yours sure are nice looking where mine is just painted battleship grey Smile
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brewslinger wrote:
I currently have a dual chamber fermentation chamber. Like yours it uses a glycol chiller (in my case homemade) which used transmission radiators to pull the heat out of each chamber. I had sized mine to hold the window ac / glycol chiller underneath the unit with each chamber sitting on top of each other. It uses pond pumps to pump up to each radiator on demand. The chambers themselves are basically yours turned sideways (25 wide x 28 deep) although they are only 30" tall. Yours sure are nice looking where mine is just painted battleship grey Smile

Sounds cool (pun intended). Post pictures!
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djosimd




Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 4
Location: Gatineau, QC


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread! Love the amount of details!

Out of curiosity, What kind of temperature are you able to achieve with your system?

Thanks!
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jcav




Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Central Florida


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a thread, I really appreciate all the photos, details and documentation. You are a true craftsman!

John

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, jcav.

djosimd - In the first page of this thread there are a few links. Here is one experiment I ran, and you'll want to look at the bottom graph on that thread (not the top one) here http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30538

In that trial I was able to chill 12 gallons of 86' F water to 46' F (40' change) in a 70' F room in about 48 hours. It keeps ales at 65'F no problem. I'd like to try doing some lagers, but will have to get back on how well it works - although hitting 46'F isn't too shabby. If I find there's trouble cooling lagers, I have a modification I'm considering that would pass glycol into a stainless tubing loop I'd put inside the fermenter to allow for more effective cooling. I had this thought during the build which, again, is why I used the more expensive food-safe glycol.

This is super nerdy, but the heat transfer equation is Q=uA(delta)T which means that:
Energy transferred = (a coefficient - like of stainless steel) X (contact area) X (delta T)

"Delta T" is the temperature difference between what you want to cool and your cooling medium. In this case the "delta T" would be the difference between the wort temperature (70' F?) and the glycol (30'F). So in this case the "delta T" is 40.

What does this mean in the real world? It's is only important in the sense that you realize that in whatever heating or cooling situation you have, if you're unhappy with the performance of your fermenter/ boil kettle/ wort chiller/ etc, you need to increase the contact surface area (A), OR make the temperature differential greater (delta T) (e.g. make the glycol colder).

As I've said, cooling a fermenter via air (and not direct contact) is not the most efficient way to do this. However, for ales this seems to work plenty well and I think it will be fine for lagers. Just do everything you can to insulate the lines and chamber and make it air-tight. If you want to cool more or faster than I did, then you have to figure out how to increase the contact area or increase the temperature difference.


Last edited by McGruber on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jonymac




Joined: 18 Dec 2014
Posts: 145



PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McGruber - dude - ridiculous. You win the the DIY fermenter chiller award! What an incredible level of effort - do you find that you you have all 3 fermenters in action most the time?

JonyMac

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonymac wrote:
McGruber - dude - ridiculous. You win the the DIY fermenter chiller award! What an incredible level of effort - do you find that you you have all 3 fermenters in action most the time?JonyMac

Thanks man. Your set up is amazing too. I'll have questions for you later on Raspberry Pints.

To clarify, I do have three 14.5 Blichmann conicals, but only 2 temperature controlled "fermentation chambers" (the other two are beer and wine cellars). All 4 ARE sometimes chilling at the same time. I've only brewed two batches since the chiller cabinets were done but they were staggered, so I've only used one cabinet so far. I've just kept kegs and a sour project in Ferm #2 for now, and conical #3 is sitting empty at room temp at the moment. Once I get caught up on everything else I neglected during the build (Ha!), I plan to set up a regular brewing rotation.

All 4 cabinets are running fine together. The beer and wine cellars are stable and those solenoids rarely activate due to the mass of liquid at the desired temp.


Last edited by McGruber on Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an update: I decided to build a two stage wort chiller taking advantage of the glycol system to cool wort down to lager temps. Here's the set up.

The two stage chiller works to take wort down to about 70' F with water, and then the glycol (from my cabinet build) takes it down even further based on how fast I flow wort. I wanted to minimize the cleaning and jamming up of the plate filter, so I installed an inline trub filter to catch cold break and hop material from the WP. (I took the HopStopper out of my Boil Kettle and transfer everything to WP). The oxygen stone section is easily removable for cleaning and sterilization if need be.

The flow goes Whirlpool Out --> WP pump --> CFC (Water) --> Trub/ Cold Break filter --> Plate Chiller (Glycol) --> Thermometer --> Oxygen Stone --> Inline Sight Glass --> Fermenter.

I handled glycol flow by T'ing off the glycol unit and controlling flow (and allowing for removal from system if need be) with the installation of water hose quick disconnects with shut-off valves.

More discussion on AERATION - Page 3. http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=324174#324174



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Last edited by McGruber on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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