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FBC Fermentation Cabinets
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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For the drawers, I spend a bit of time looking at commercial examples (pictures) online of wine racks and figuring out how to maximize the number of wine bottles I could fit in a drawer. I have 11 drawers at 7 bottles per drawer in the Wine Bottle Cellar. My math never really worked out the way I expected to predict the best spacing Drunk, and so it came down to trial and error. It worked best to place six slats in the wine drawer and rotate them 45' so they are triangular shaped relative to the top of the wood (so it's peaked at the topmost point).

I figured out where everything should line up, made a form to simplify my life (which works for the beer drawers too), pre-drilled into the slats, and screwed them in place using the screws shown. I didn't glue, because I wanted to be able to rotate them as needed. Slats are pieces I ripped from 1" wide select pine into nearly square 1/2 lengths. I then sanded them to take out the table saw marks and slightly round the corners for a more finished look, and also sanded the drawer frame to make it more uniform and accept lacquer better. (Sanding became my least favorite activity during this build.)

The drawers are also built out of Select Pine, and I assembled them using a borrowed Kreg Jig Pocket Hole system, wood glue and Pocket Hole screws. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kreg-K4-Pocket-Hole-System-K4H/202074960

My only real advice (and it's important) is to ensure each drawer is almost perfectly "square" and exactly the same size. Also, make sure your cabinet and/or spacers are nearly precisely uniform distance across from each other. I had no idea drawers/ sliders were so fickle - 1/8" can make or break you. My hat's off to you people that do that for a living. Having no previous experience, I endured a fair amount of trial and error here also. As with everything in this build, I got competent doing a skill just as I finished it. Ha!



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Form
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Place pocket holes where they won't be seen from the interior of the drawer.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same process for the beer cellar drawers. I found that despite using soft-close drawer sliders, beers standing vertically** were likely to tip over when the drawer was slid in or out. I decided to build a brace for the top part of the bottle to support the higher center of gravity. The thin vertical supports are just pieces of the drawer floor slats screwed using 1" or 1 1/4" wood screws. Everything got glued and pocket holes.

Because the slats are spaced I decided to run a wire mesh across the bottom to allow air flow, and yet support bottles of all sizes. I pirated the mesh from my hop dryer (on my brewery build page). I forget what it's called, but I think it's 1/4" square mesh. And then because the metal on glass was slippery, I covered the mesh with a porous rubber drawer anti-slide mat. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Con-Tact-48-in-x-20-in-Black-Ultra-Grip-Drawer-Shelf-Liner-04F-C6O51-12/100388913

**(which is how they should be stored to minimize surface area of oxygen exposure in the bottle - wine is less susceptible to oxidation and you want to keep the cork wet, which is why they're stored horizontal).

I used 20" Soft Close Ball Bearing Full Extension Drawer Sliders. I love them. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-20-in-Soft-Close-Ball-Bearing-Full-Extension-Drawer-Slide-1-Pair-942005/205171292



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The wire mesh is stapled to the slats in just a few places to keep it down.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything got sanded and spray lacquered.


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The clear gloss.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sliders


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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After getting all the drawers in place, I measured out the distance in the door opening and cut hemlock to as close to the same size to use as a face plate. This covers the pocket holes and ends of the drawer slides, and adds a nice touch that ties in the door frame and cabinet trim. It got the standard sanding (ugh), staining and lacquering as previously noted. I then centered them in the door, and pre-drilled the back and then secured to the drawer using 1 1/4" wood screws).


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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Control Panels: (sorry, Kal. I'll have you link to TheElectricBrewery with Amazon) - Done! Thanks for supporting our site! - Kal

I've seen a couple great builds where one panel rules them all (such as jonymac's impressive build here http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28624&highlight=). I opted to build one control box for each cabinet. I figure this will be more modular, and in theory (pending cooling solutions) I could move two cabinets into my garage, or add four four more cabinets, and they'll all be stand alone so I won't have to change one master panel. I'm not saying anything's going to change for a while, but it gives me some flexibility. Like jonymac said on that link 'there are probably lots better ways to go about this - this is just one way...'

As mentioned in my first post, I saw somewhere that 120v solenoids are loud, get hot, and other various draw-backs. I couldn't find very much feedback on 24v solenoids online or in forums, but those problems are avoided in my experience by using them. There's a small, but noticeable "click" sound when the solenoid activates (like if you were to flick a book with your finger not very hard). Also, I'm powering 24v LED strips, computer fans, small-ish lab pad heaters and a PID that all run on 24v, so that worked out pretty well. This saves a signifiant amount of amperage draw in the system and on the house.


So, for one cabinet:

(1 ea) 120v to 24v "Power Switching Supply Driver" - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IOK5FM0/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=9f0fdb7139f24ff9f139cb8356222291 .
In one of the links I posted, Kal was concerned that the Power Supply Driver had lots of holes in it, and I was sticking it in an enclosed metal box. There's a potential for significant heat build up. So far, the boxes average about 85' F with the lid on but with ventilation holes. I found these Power Supply Drivers that actually provide more 24v hook-ups than my first one, and also has a built in fan. I also placed ventilation holes in the control box to allow for air movement low on the right side, and high in the rear.

(1 ea) L22 Red 22mm 24v DC LED Panel Light https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HU09UE0/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=6ce4d0a96a0b1df2aa0d52310c66ccb8

(1 ea) L22 Blue 22mm 24v DC LED Panel Light https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HU09VQC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=170cbf00e1029f0f3f817ea03729a507

(1 ea) 2 Pin Waterproof Electrical Connector Plug (for the pad heater to disconnect and remove fermenter from cabinet while leaving heating pad attached.)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BYNKUSE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=7c0705185f272a4f973f2deabe4ee6ca

(1 ea) AC 250v Panel Mount Plug Adapter Power Connector C14 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ISO2T1C/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=621d1ccdaad25597c2a3578e364563d8

(1 ea) 5 amp fuse https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00L6T1DX2/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=2369203a1eb791bf97b0dc71a6a70e48

(1 ea) Green Ring LED Stainless Latching Push Button Switch 19mm 24v https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BM3AP7W/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=afe994cae8dafbc2e6e51abf5adbedf7

(1 ea) Cutting Oil https://www.amazon.com/Forney-20857-Magic-Industrial-Cutting/dp/B003X3ZKXI/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1485397562&sr=8-1&keywords=cutting+oil&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=91e83a7c8d88063cdd27ddb0b45441c7

(1 ea) 12v - 24v Warm White LED Light Bar (except for beer bottle cellar - light is bad for beer) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LABGWBE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=3c70492d69da82f3882a4b242017513a

(1 ea) Steel Junction Box with lift off screw cover https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005UP9VGY/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=af4641848f447cbeb37b25edb6d9096d

(1 ea) Universal Power Cord NEMA 5-15P to IEC320C13 (of whatever length you need) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000067RWH/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=df557bfe1e2ec47640212f08d488dd4e

(1 ea) Surge Protector https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K8ZMTFQ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=3eca0aee526744a552a139c623d5050f

(1 ea) Doorbell Wire https://www.amazon.com/Woods-0453-Bell-Wire-50-Feet/dp/B000UE471O/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1485396942&sr=8-1&keywords=doorbell+wire&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=9961d2413b5d07b30daee30db4f5136e

(1 or 2) Rust-oleum Hammered Spray Paint - Black (this is what I used on the control boxes and on the lighting assembly I built for my backspash behind the brew system) http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Universal-12-oz-All-Surface-Hammered-Black-Spray-Paint-and-Primer-in-One-245217/100623084

(1 ea) GreenLee Multi Hole Step Bit https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001M0MDIE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=e64220e77e508408895b1e9c5265ac4c

(1 ea) 1/8" to 1/2" Step Bit https://www.amazon.com/8-1-Step-Drill-Bit/dp/B00KPZFFDC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1485397503&sr=8-9&keywords=milwaukee+step+bit&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=c578a4ef0142453243b8f427ea9ebb22

(1 ea) begged, borrowed or purchased Drill Press https://www.amazon.com/WEN-4208-8-Inch-Speed-Drill/dp/B00HQONFVE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1485397631&sr=1-2&keywords=drill+press&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=f1d0a69a8f104a6524739571b30b8649

(2 ea) Wire Pull Drawer Handle (4") http://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-4-in-102mm-Satin-Nickel-Wire-Cabinet-Pull-P604DC-SN-C/202023487

(4 ea) #8 3/8" machine screws (for handles)

Powered hand drill, various screwdrivers, a very small phillips head screwdriver (electronics/ eye glass), sandpaper to rough up the metal box before painting.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN! I have no electrical training or experience outside of this project and changing outlets/ switches/ light fixtures in my own home. I am not telling you that this is the best or only way to do this, that you should attempt it, or that anything I used is rated for how I used it. If you're uncomfortable with electricity or have any concerns, get a professional electrician to help you. Thank you!



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Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:50 pm; edited 11 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beer/ Wine Bottle Cellars - Constant Temp

For my first cabinet I built as a trial to see if this whole crazy idea was going to work (which ended up being the wine cellar), I used Auber's Universal 1/16 DIN Temperature Controller 12-30V DC PWR Item #: SYL-2362B http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=132 . This controller is about half the cost of the PID's used in the true fermentation cabinets, and is perfectly adequate for simply holding a temperature. I'm keeping the wine and beer "cellars" at a constant 55' F. I'm also using a K type thermocouple in the wine fridge, but switched to an RTD in the Beer Cellar cabinet.

Follow the Instruction manual and program it like this (for cooling mode, Temp measured in degrees Fahrenheit , 1' F hysteresis band, and heater wired but effectively deactivated)

Press "SET", use arrows to enter 0089, Press "SET"
Int y = (upside down h?)
Out y = 4
Hy = 1
Atdu = 10
PSB = 0
rd = 0
Corf = 1

Press "SET", use arrows to enter 0001, Press "SET"
Su = 55
AH 1 = 38
AL1 = 39
AH2 = 900
AL 2 = 800

Then use the up/ down arrows to set your cooling temp

** There might be a better way to program these, but this is working the way I want it to. I'm happy for any feedback though, if you see anything I can improve.

*** Also, I just realized I didn't fix the picture or number of wire attachments to reflect the new ventilated Power Switching Controller, as I did on the PID for the Fermentation cabinets. Adapt as necessary.



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Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:09 pm; edited 7 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fermentation Cabinets - 30 programable steps

For Fermentation Cabinets #1 and #2, I used Auber's 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Conroller w/Ramp and Soak 12-24v Item #SYL-2342P-24 http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=602 . This controller is programmable for up to 30 steps using cooling and/or heating. I'm using Auber's Pt100 RTD thermocouple, which fits down a thermowell into the fermenter on both Fermentation cabinets and the Beer Bottle cellar. (I'll post pictures of this later on).

To program: (most of these don't need to be changed from factory settings - reference the Instruction Manual to figure out what it all means)

Hold "SET" for 2 - 3 seconds
ALM1 = 1000
ALM2 = 0
Hy-1 = 9999
HY-2 = 9999
Hy = 0.5 **
At = 0
I = 1000
P = 500
d = 120
t = 20
Sn = 21
P-SL = 35
P-SH = 100
pb = 0.0
op-A = 0
OutL = 0
OutH = 100
AL-P = 17
COOL = 9
Addr = 1
Band = 4800
Filt = 0
A-M = 2
dp = 1


Also, be aware that this PID does not function the same way as the Beer and Wine Bottle cellars' PID. Those you can set the temp using SV, and that's what it will cool/ heat to. This PID is a Ramp/ Soak controller, so it always is trying to get from Temp #1 to Temp #2 to Temp #3 etc.

So, to hold a constant temp (like 55' F) set C01 (the first temperature program setting) to 55. It will then ask how long you want to hold that temp (in time) t01 = 9999 (minutes). You then must set C02 (the second temperature setting) also to 55'. Then set t02 to -1. The -1 (minus one) sends the controller back to Temp Setting #1 (C01) after the 9999 minutes is over and moves to step 2. This cycle will then continue indefinitely From Step 1 to Step 2 to Step 1... Clear as mud?

I learned this the hard way after wondering why when my set temp was 55', it would slowly decrease the temperature over time. It was because the Temp in CO2 was set at 0. Even though I had t02 at -1 to send it back to step one after 9999 minutes at step one, it was trying to ramp the temp from 55' to 0' over those 9999 minutes. Cross

In this way you can set it to ramp up or down to whatever temperature over whatever time frame for however many steps (max 30). It looks confusing, but if you read the instruction manual a couple dozen times (like I did) it will become clearer.

** For solenoids and compressors it's recommended that you set the Hysteresis band to 1 or 2' F so it doesn't activate very frequently. I find that the temp change is slow enough in the fermenter thermowell that a 0.5' F Hysteresis is just fine.



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Last edited by McGruber on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:06 pm; edited 4 times in total
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ParadiseBrew




Joined: 09 Dec 2014
Posts: 83
Location: paradise, ca


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please post more about the glyco setup.. I would like to know the cooler and radiators you are using... Thanks!!
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ParadiseBrew wrote:
Please post more about the glyco setup.. I would like to know the cooler and radiators you are using... Thanks!!

I can tackle a little bit more today. Will send more info out over the next couple days.

The Glycol Radiator mount for one cabinet is built using:

(2 ea) 120mm 24v Computer Fans ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H8UTN6C/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=3d12a960b485657c7960e7683a0b83fe )

(1 ea) four foot Zinc-Plated Punched Steel Flat Bar (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-3-8-in-x-48-in-Zinc-Plated-Punched-Steel-Flat-Bar-with-1-16-in-Thick-802067/204225777) that's cut into one foot sections with a reciprocating saw. You'll only use two sections for 1 cabinet. I bent it at about a 45 degree angle at the 7th hole (about 5") to promote circulation in the cabinet.

(1 ea) Zinc Plated Steel Flat Bar (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-36-in-x-3-4-in-x-1-8-in-Zinc-Plated-Steel-Flat-Bar-802347/204225728) cut as long as the computer fan from point to point diagonally. Which for a 120mm square fan should be about 6.5" (or 17 cm). Hold against the computer fan and mark where to drill holes on the flat bar. I think I used a 3/16" bit to drill the holes. Use a metal file on any and all cut edges for this and the punched steel.

(2 ea) SharkBite 1/2" X 3/8" MNPT Reducing Elbow (http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-1-2-in-x-3-8-in-Brass-90-Degree-Push-to-Connect-x-MNPT-Dishwasher-Elbow-U281LFA/202830513)

(2 ea) Brass Hose Barb Adapter 3/8" X 3/8" FIP (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-Lead-Free-Brass-Hose-Barb-Adapter-3-8-in-x-3-8-in-FIP-800159/300095957)

(2 ea) about 2" sections of 5/8" OD (3/8" ID) Braided Vinyl Tubing (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-5-8-in-O-D-x-3-8-in-I-D-x-10-ft-PVC-Braided-Vinyl-Tube-204667/207144213)

(1 ea) Tube and Fin Automotive Transmission Cooler ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C3BB7G/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=f28a20279aa7b2745cbfffecacd81284 ) - This unit comes with four worm-drive tubing clamps. You'll use two of those per-cabinet. (2 spares to use in the brewery!)

(8 ea) #8 flat washers

(4 ea) #8-32 Machine screw nuts

(4 ea) #8-32 X 2 1/2" Machine Screws (Pan head combo)

(4 ea) Poly-set wall anchor screws (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Red-Head-12-x-1-1-2-in-x-1-7-16-in-Poly-Set-Plastic-Anchors-with-Screws-20-Pack-35225/100148739) for securing the assembly to the interior of the cabinet.


You'll also need:

Lengths of 1/2" Blue and Red PEX tubing (colors optional) to connect to glycol feeder and return lines. (http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-1-2-in-x-10-ft-Red-PEX-Pipe-U860R10/202687907)

A PEX cutter - ( https://www.amazon.com/Sharkbite-Cash-ACME-TV205292-Cutter/dp/B00OFNL5QQ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1485478607&sr=1-4-catcorr&keywords=Sharkbite+PEX+cutter&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=f2320e8d69687c24ff9f47226bb062c3 )

SharkBite Disconnect Clips - ( https://www.amazon.com/SharkBite-U710A-Disconnect-Clip-2-Inch/dp/B000FPDFBQ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EHNJBP55TZY1P2WXMTH5&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=9692ec7ee01ba23f3b6aae5152ef325f ) You'll need 1/2" and 3/4" if you do the glycol lines same a I did.

SharkBite Deburring and Depth Tool ( https://www.amazon.com/Cash-Acme-U702A-Shark-Bite/dp/B000K6QFSU/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EHNJBP55TZY1P2WXMTH5&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=617e661b118adb2230a412fe311f85bc )

Teflon tape ( http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/A-roll-of-PTFE-white-teflon-thread-sealant-tape )



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Last edited by McGruber on Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:25 am; edited 4 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be obvious by now, but when the wort (becoming beer) is too warm. The solenoid opens, allowing chilled glycol into the transmission cooler assembly. The fans constantly circulate air over the transmission cooler, thus cooling the chamber.

I should mention that I saw this (similar) use of the transmission cooler idea for a brewery set-up with glycol somewhere in images online about (or more than) two years ago. I couldn't find it last time I searched. I did borrow this idea from someone else however, so kudos and many thanks to whomever posted that pic so long ago.



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Last edited by McGruber on Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used PEX because I found chatter on ProBrewer.com and/or somewhere else that PEX was better than PVC because of its ability to handle sub-freezing temperatures and the slight acidity of glycol better. It sounded to me like PVC was more likely to fail over time. Of course that's on an industrial level with industrial level temperatures/ flows/ pressures, but clearly I'm super nerdy and I went the most cautious route. I'm no expert and information was sparse but that was my understanding.

I also went with SharkBite connectors throughout the glycol system (more on that to follow). They're more expensive than going the PVC route and gluing cheaper connections together. However, since I modified my lines several times (more on that to follow), it was nice that I could just disconnect and re-attach the PEX whenever and however I wanted. If you go PVC and gluing things, you'll probably save money, but will spend more time cutting and gluing if you monkey with it all as much as I did. You might not have to now that I've done some of the leg work to make sure it will work.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to try to keep this failure brief, but wanted to relay my experience and reasoning.



My first attempt at chilling glycol was by using my existing chest freezer that I've had forever. I essentially turned it into a keezer following the multitude of build instructions out there on the interweb.

It chilled 12 gallons of undisturbed glycol/ water mixture to a sub-zero slushy consistency in two days. Because my freezer has a bottom drain, I tried keeping the glycol solution in a thick 2 mil? plastic barrier. I somehow (that I'm still not sure how) got some pin-holes in the plastic sheeting and a small amount of glycol leaked out of the drain onto my brewery floor.

I removed the compromised plastic, caulked the drain to seal it up, allowed about a week to dry and refilled with glycol. Drain seemed to hold. Placed water feature pump that I bought for this purpose into glycol solution and ran my glycol lines (coming soon). Fired everything up. No leaks, all was well, went to bed. Overnight, the Glycol mixture in the freezer HEATED from 67' F to 85' F the next morning. Ice build up on walls inside freezer. Exterior walls of freezer were hot. Keezer working overdrive to overcome the heat being produced by the pump.



Things that I already know, and knew going into it:

1.) 12 gallons of glycol mixture (5 gallons of glycol purchased online) barely filled the bottom trough. There's not a whole lot of surface area for heat to exchange between the glycol and the wall of the freezer.

2.) Air to liquid thermal conduction is poor. Especially when there's really not a whole lot of liquid to begin with.

3.) Food safe Propylene Glycol is not cheap. I got food-safe because I've considered adapting it to my wort chiller set up (mostly for lagers) and it's possible that for lagering if the Glycol -> air -> wort cooling efficiency is too low I might actually adapt my fermenator to place a single coil inside the wort/beer. If ever the two (wort and glycol) should meet, I don't want to kill anyone or myself.



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Last edited by McGruber on Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My options at this point are:

1.) Spend roughly $600 buying enough glycol (to mix with water at an appropriate ratio) to nearly completely fill my freezer to maximize the interface between glycol solution and the wall of the freezer where the cooling coils are.
Problem A.) I wasn't sure if this would combat all the heat the pump was producing, and how much demand it was going to place on my old freezer (aka how much it would need to cycle to cool.)
Problem B.) If that silicone plug didn't hold, I was going to ruin my brewery/ basement entertainment room and lose $600 in glycol
Problem C.) My old freezer wasn't designed to hold the mass and pressure of X# lbs of X# gallons of glycol mixture. It's designed to cool air, not hundreds of pounds of slippery goo.

2.) Remove the pump from within the freezer and place it somewhere outside of the freezer.
Problem A.) I wasn't sure how to compute head pressure and suction. If I placed the pump on the floor next to the freezer, it would have to draw up and out of the freezer, instead of the constant supply it had while resting in glycol. Didn't love the idea of mounting it inline, or know where to put it to keep it out of the way.
Problem B.) It was fairly loud even though it was sealed inside the freezer, and I didn't really want to listen to it outside the freezer.

3.) Buy a fair amount of copper or stainless tubing and fill my freezer with coiled metal to cool glycol as it passes through in a closed loop.
Problem A.) There's nothing wrong with this route, but it didn't seem like the best option if I'm going to be using it for chilling wort in any capacity. Also, I wasn't sure what the thermal demand on 4 cabinets would be. It seemed like I would need a lot of tubing to hold enough glycol and hope that it passed by slow enough or through enough distance to exchange heat appropriately. This equals lots of copper and expense, and again, not really doing what the freezer was intended for.
Problem B.) I'd still need to figure out how to pump it. So Option 2 is still in play and still need to deal with heat produced and/ or noise.

4.) Figure out what different pump to buy that would be quieter, produce less heat, and still be able to effectively pump 8 feet of head pressure, plus about a 50 foot run and the added resistance of 4 transmission coolers. I didn't even know where to start here. Data on pumps usually include its horsepower and/ or flow, but not heat and noise.

5.) Buy a glycol power pack that is designed to do exactly what I need.
Problem A.) Expense? I found this one for $879 http://rapidswholesale.com/3-gal-glycol-unit-1-3-hp-120v.html and it seemed to have good reviews.

However, since I spent $852 on door hardware alone, it seemed silly to risk my brewery, my house, my perfectly good old freezer, and some-$600 in glycol to save a little bit of money on glycol chilling (maybe? energy demand on keezer?) . I decided it was worth it for my sanity to get the glycol chiller with built-in pump, plug it into the wall, and call it good.

I love the thing. Quiet. Small (it fits on the bottom shelf of my brew table). Keeps 3 gallons of glycol mixture at 30'F (colder if I want). Does what it's built for. Sexy. Boom. Do it.

Maybe I'm wrong. Made sense to me.


Oh yeah. And now I have a keezer ready to go in my brewery.



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Last edited by McGruber on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:12 pm; edited 4 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To feed glycol to the rest of the line, I used 5/8" OD reinforced vinyl tubing (the same as to the transmission coolers in the cabinet) from the glycol unit to the run of 3/4" PEX tube. You'll need teflon tape for all threaded joints again.

It goes:

Glycol Unit http://rapidswholesale.com/3-gal-glycol-unit-1-3-hp-120v.html

(2 each of these)
-> Vinyl tubing (with hose clamps - here's a good spot to use those spares from the transmission coolers) http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-5-8-in-O-D-x-3-8-in-I-D-x-10-ft-PVC-Braided-Vinyl-Tube-204667/207144213

-> 3/8" ID X 1/2" MIP Brass Hose Barb http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-Lead-Free-Brass-Hose-Barb-Adapter-3-8-in-x-1-2-in-MIP-800179/300095960

-> 1/2" FIP to 1/2" FIP (Double female) Brass Pipe http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sioux-Chief-1-2-in-Lead-Free-Brass-FPT-x-FPT-Coupling-930-122001/300271301?keyword=930-122001

-> 3/4" X 1/2" MNPT SharkBite adapter http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-3-4-in-Brass-Push-to-Connect-x-1-2-in-Male-Pipe-Thread-Reducer-Adapter-U138LFA/202721834

-> 3/4" PEX tubing



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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appears I didn't get a photo of this section before it was wrapped. It's a dump valve system so I can pump the glycol out of the unit and drain the system. You can probably imagine it, or contact me if you have any questions.

It's a SharkBite 3/4" X 3/4" X 3/4" T to a
small section of 3/4" PEX, to a
3/4" SharkBite to threaded FIP ball valve to a (teflon)
3/4" MIP to 3/4" Garden Hose adapter.

I also created a section of silicone hose (the same Kal uses in the brewery) attached with a hose clamp to a Garden Hose threaded barb, so I can thread it on when needed, and then place the hose in a bucket.



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ParadiseBrew




Joined: 09 Dec 2014
Posts: 83
Location: paradise, ca


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS FOR ALL THE DETAILS!! Looks killer and love the setup. do you think that glycol chiller with a large radiator could chill a walkin say 8'x8'x10'?

maybe one like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Mishimoto-MMOC-F-Transmission-Cooler-Electric/dp/B0035Z3NUG/ref=sr_1_32?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1485540925&sr=1-32&keywords=Tube+and+Fin+Transmission+Cooler



*** also... does the glycol constantly recirculate in the pipes and the PID's only kick on the fans when the temp is below X?
I don't think i understand the flow.. hehe... that the glycol chiller is always running the keep the bath at the set temp and the pump is always going to keep the lines cold and then when a cabinet is over x temp hot the fan kicks on .. but i did not see any auto valves that would be isolating a cabinet on / off... which might work also???
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wherever I could, I used these 90's to decrease friction loss and keep flow up. http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-Metal-PEX-Pipe-90-Degree-Bend-Support-23054/202032950. Otherwise, where space was limited - SharkBite 3/4" 90's http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-Brass-Push-to-Connect-90-Degree-Elbow-U256LFA/202270511

and 3/4" X 3/4" X 1/2" T's http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-3-4-in-x-3-4-in-x-1-2-in-Brass-Push-to-Connect-Reducer-Tee-U412LFA/202270526


For the Solenoid system I bought:

(1 ea) SharkBite 1/2" Ball valves http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-1-2-in-Brass-Push-to-Connect-Ball-Valve-22222-0000LF/202270642 - I placed these ahead of the solenoid on the Glycol IN line into the cabinet. This way if the solenoid failed or leaked, or the control unit malfunctioned I could still shut off the glycol.

(1 ea) 1/2" NPT Normally Closed 24v solenoid https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EP0Z0G/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=0cc4b1400ae70458fa444652cd8d1c2e

(2 ea) SharkBite 1/2" X 1/2" MPT http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-1-2-in-Brass-Push-to-Connect-x-Male-Pipe-Thread-Adapter-U120LFA/202270505 screwed into both sides of the solenoid

Teflon and attach (make sure to pay attention to flow direction).


Pressure gauge:
Because the pressure seems to fluctuate between 5 and 10 psi only, I went with this pressure gauge instead of the one pictured disassembled. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G3IY87O/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=ea07323d70d492d7102ebc66f591d3ea

Otherwise its a 1/4" to 3/4" adapter and yet another SharkBite 3/4" to 3/4" thread adapter.


*In the second to last picture you'll notice that the valve on the return loop is closed about half-way. The increased pressure this causes in the line forces glycol into the chamber when the solenoid activates. Without this pressure, when the solenoid opens glycol would take the path of least resistance and mostly remain in the 3/4" line.



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Last edited by McGruber on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ParadiseBrew wrote:
THANKS FOR ALL THE DETAILS!! Looks killer and love the setup. do you think that glycol chiller with a large radiator could chill a walkin say 8'x8'x10'?

Thanks! Yes, I think it would do fine. It's recommended to have less than 60' of glycol line, and this unit only has a 3 gallon reservoir, but I don't see why that wouldn't work. That unit is awesome BTW.

ParadiseBrew wrote:
*** also... does the glycol constantly recirculate in the pipes and the PID's only kick on the fans when the temp is below X?

Yes and no. The pump circulates glycol constantly through the loop, because I have 4 cabinets that all kick on and off at different times. The fan's are always on, and always circulating air. I could have wired the fans to come on just when the solenoid opened, but I opted to always have air moving. The PID's open the solenoid valve to let glycol into the chamber, otherwise the glycol continues in the loop above (and outside of) the cabinets. The fans together are only pulling about 0.24 amps per cabinet, so I wasn't worried about draw and they don't create heat.

ParadiseBrew wrote:
I did not see any auto valves that would be isolating a cabinet on / off... which might work also???

I think there's two ways to take this, if I'm understanding correctly:
1.) If you're asking if the cabinets are isolated, yes, the PID controller opens or closes the solenoid just for that one cabinet, which allows glycol into the chamber/ transmission cooler/ fans. If the solenoid is NOT open then chilled glycol is NOT passing through the interior of the chamber and it continues in its merry loop suspended from the ceiling back to the glycol chiller.

2.) If you're asking if the glycol pump can be isolated and turned off and on when the PID calls for cool then: I've scanned some threads online that involve that question, but that amount of complexity is above my paygrade and made my head swim. Maybe if it was one cabinet or one fridge that might make sense, but it seems like a lot of complex wiring to set that up in my scenario. My system is closed enough and efficient enough, that recirculating constantly doesn't create any losses that I can figure. I think it would be hard on the glycol unit/ pump to be powered on and off so often running 4 cabinets. However, I'm no expert and that's just my opinion.


Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hung the glycol lines using:

Screw Hook Lag Thread bolts. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-4-in-x-3-3-4-in-Zinc-Plated-Lag-Thread-Screw-Hook-806966/204273850 - pre-drilled into the ceiling beams and screwed these in using a pair of vice grip pliers.

#4 Electrical Conduit Hangers http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-4-in-x-3-3-4-in-Zinc-Plated-Lag-Thread-Screw-Hook-806966/204273850 (I'm not sure which on the website is #4 - double check before you buy)

Zinc-plated S-hooks http://www.homedepot.com/p/Crown-Bolt-1-8-in-x-1-1-4-in-Zinc-Plated-S-Hook-64714/203001547 (to hold conduit hangers together)



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