| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
|
 Link Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:37 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
I'm going to disagree, respectfully. I think the inline aeration will be much more efficient than aeration in the fermenter.
My thoughts are this
>> In the fermenter you are bubbling the air up through the wort, the contact time is the time it takes for the bubbles to float to the top an then its gone. You have a relative small amount of air and a very large volume of wort.
>> In the inline aeration you have the same amount of air (per time) but a very small amount of wort in a very confined space ( the tube ). I think there will be a much faster take up of oxygen (air) inline than in the larger volume of the fermenter.
Just my very unscientific opinion.
I have used the inline aeration, aeration with air through a stone and oxygenation with pure oxygen through a stone. I have not noticed (limited powers of observation warning) any significant difference in fermentation.
_________________
David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho
|
| Link Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kal wrote: | | The stone needs to be for 30-120 mins if using atmosphere. Doesn't matter where it is, the time would be the same. You don't see brewers using atmosphere inline for this reason, only pure oxygen. If you want aerate inline you need to use pure oxygen. Good luck! |
I also respectfully disagree. David-H's points are valid - especially the contact surface area of bubbling through a fermenter vs inline. Inline aeration using an oil-free air compressor system is more common on the commercial level than oxygenation, and they don't bubble air for two+ hours into their fermentation vessels.
You do need to increase the amount of time that you introduce air than pure O2 because air is 21% oxygen and pure O2 is 100% (or nearly), but most formulas call for for less than a couple minutes using pure O2. Small bubbles do increase the contact surface area and increase absorption as does an increase in pressure, I just don't know how well Venturi works better than a stone. My understanding is that if you inline aerate most (or all) of the time you're filling then you're maximizing absorption. I think aerating beyond that is just blowing off hop aroma because you're not going to get more than 8-9 ppm absorption using air regardless of how much you aerate.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho
|
| Link Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jimboh wrote: | | I reckon I need a one way check valve . I didn't turn it on until I started pumping the wort into my fermenter. I had wort running through the stone and filter and up the hose. Did not reach the pump. When I turned on the pump it pushed the wort back some but did not have sufficient pressure to get air into the stone. |
You must have missed this from my post on the first page...
"There's an oxygen stone attached in the back of the "T" that goes to a welding oxygen tank. Requisite inline O2 filter, "T" and valves (so I can attach a oxygen wand for oxygenating yeast starters (or a fermenter if I want to after fermentation has begun), and a Check Valve ( https://www.morebeer.com/products/shut-checkball-valve.html?a_aid=theelectricbrewery ) so wort doesn't back up the line and wreck the O2 filter (speaking from experience). I did move it closer to the stone than some of the pictures depict. The first picture has it right, other two do not. Most fittings were purchased at Home Depot. "
| jimboh wrote: | Also, considering changing so the center of the first tee joins to the center of the second tee with the stone coming in at the top and the quick attach at the bottom, will that make any difference ? (Fluid mechanics/dynamics is not my strong point   |
You can do that if you want to for different access to the disconnect, but it shouldn't make any difference in fluid backing up. Running your aquarium pump the whole time will probably help, but the difference in pressure between your wort and your air pump is what will cause back-up. If your air pump has less pressure, then you'll get wort in your air line every time (regardless if it's pointing up or down). The check valve should help.
Last edited by McGruber on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:35 am; edited 2 times in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes I did miss it.
Pump is too weak. I don't know why I bought it, I have a good quality dentist vacuum pump that i use for vacuum transfer/degas for my wines. I can just switch the filter and barbs to opposite ends. Will have much greater available pressure than the little aquarium pump. Guess I will need a new filter as well as a check valve. I flushed it through with clean water and star san straight away but I guess it is ruined.
I am also considering using it for vacuum transfer of beer from my brewbucksts/conical too my cornys. Idea is seal keg, attach slight vacuum to in post and a tube from racking outlet to keg out post/dip tube... What do you think?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho
|
| Link Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jimboh wrote: | | I am also considering using it for vacuum transfer of beer from my brewbucksts/conical too my cornys. Idea is seal keg, attach slight vacuum to in post and a tube from racking outlet to keg out post/dip tube... What do you think? |
I'm not familiar with dental vacuums and how they work - you talking about the spit sucker? I'd be worried about putting a keg or conical under vacuum depending on the vacuum strength. Kegs and conicals are designed to hold a fair amount of positive pressure but don't necessarily do well under negative pressure. Hook an empty pop can up to a vacuum and see what happens. I think you'd probably be fine, but what if your beer line gets plugged with hop material and you don't know it? Imploded pop can.
I push the beer out of my conical with positive pressure CO2 and monitor to keep below 3 psi (usually 1.5 psi is plenty), and you could fashion a way to do this with a carboy too - I don't know what positive pressure a glass carboy or plastic bucket can handle so you'd have to be careful of that too. I do hate siphoning though, so I can see why you're thinking that.
In short I'd favor pushing beer than pulling it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | you talking about the spit sucker? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | In short I'd favor pushing beer than pulling it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. |
I can see why but my Co2 tank is a long way from where I do my fermenting/kegging. I could install quick connects on my Co2 Reg line so I can move it around, or I could use the vacuum pump. The pic below shows the rig I use for wine transfer and wine de-gassing i have a T in the suction line with 2 simple taps so I can vary the negative pressure. It does not take much to get a siphon going so I normally leave clear tap fully open and start with the red tap also fully open, so very little suction. Then I close up the red tap to get an aggressive splashing to start the degassing and then adjust it to prevent over foaming. Works really well and much easier/quicker than stirring with a drill attachment.
To use it for wort transfer to keg, the red valve will be able to stay fully open so no chance of getting too much negative pressure.
I cant see any disadvantages to this myself, but then I'm a noob to this all grain game.
The thing on the left is a silencer. I can replace that with the barbed fitting on the other end and connect an air filter to the suction end and use it as a pump for the aeration stone.
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
77.1 KB |
| Viewed: |
19259 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho
|
| Link Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jimboh wrote: | To use it for wort transfer to keg, the red valve will be able to stay fully open so no chance of getting too much negative pressure.
I cant see any disadvantages to this myself, but then I'm a noob to this all grain game.
The thing on the left is a silencer. I can replace that with the barbed fitting on the other end and connect an air filter to the suction end and use it as a pump for the aeration stone. |
Seems reasonable to me. Go for it!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Set up my vacuum pump (in blow mode) for a test run. Much more power available than the little aquarium pump.
One issue though, the vacuum pump runs hot, hence the cooling fins on the top. The pumped air is therefore also quite warm.
Having gone to the trouble of cooling the wort down do I really want to reintroduce heat? Not really sure it would have much effect on the actual wort temp. Any thoughts?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
McGruber
Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho
|
| Link Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jimboh wrote: | | ...the vacuum pump runs hot, hence the cooling fins on the top. The pumped air is therefore also quite warm. |
I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but does the air feel hot, or are you just guessing it is because the pump is hot? I doubt that the temp of the air is the same as the temp of the pump. Even if it is warmer than room temp it's probably not something that's heating the wort significantly. But I don't know that for sure. You'll just have to experiment with it.
| jimboh wrote: | | Having gone to the trouble of cooling the wort down do I really want to reintroduce heat? Not really sure it would have much effect on the actual wort temp. Any thoughts? |
I think the best way to check would be to measure the wort temp before and after the air inlet to see if there's any difference in temperature. If there is, say a theoretical 2 degree difference from before/ after the air inlet, then you would just cool 2 degrees lower than your target temp so when the heated air is introduced it still comes out at target temp for your yeast.
Edit: I just had the thought that measuring the temp inline after air/ oxygen can be inaccurate, so you'd probably want to measure the temp of the wort in your fermentation vessel and see if it correlates with the wort coming out of the chiller before air inlet.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but does the air feel hot, or are you just guessing it is because the pump is hot? I doubt that the temp of the air is the same as the temp of the pump. Even if it is warmer than room temp it's probably not something that's heating the wort significantly. But I don't know that for sure. You'll just have to experiment with it. |
Yes the air feels quite hot to the skin. The hot air will only be in contact with a particular bit of wort for a fraction of a second so I would be surprised if it would have a big effect.
I find it quite a challenge to adjust cold water flow and wort flow to get an accurate temp.
With my Grainfather I would, as per their instructions circulate the wort through the coil and back into the boiler while adjusting cold water flow. When the wort in the tube temp was right I would transfer the tube into the fermenter. It worked very well and I never had anything but crystal clear beer.
I made a blonde ale recently from Kals recipe and even after using a Kieselsol and Chitosan agent (I had no galatine) and 5 days crash at 32F it is still cloudy. I had a bit of a hickup with this brew. When I was ready to start chill I put the chiller out hose into the fermenter and accidentally gravity transferred around 3 gals(of 10) of hot wort into the fermenter. I immediately poured it back into the boiler and proceeded with the chill. Could this be contributing to a failure to clear?
If it does not clear, any benefit in giving it a gelatine treatment this late? It will be going into bottles /keg soon.
I made this brew for my 'non' beer specialist friends and they are the most likely to complain at cloudiness.
Last edited by jimboh on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ozarks Mountain Brew
Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
|
| Link Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
you could always run a line in an ice bath
_________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | you could always run a line in an ice bath |
Yeh, I thought about that, I could run the air through my output cooler on my water purifier... But then I would have to plumb that into the cold water feed, twas supposed to be a easy fix.
Should have gone with a venturi.... or a taller ferm chamber si I can get a stirrer in there or a stone on a wand.
Actually wrapping the air line around a freezer pack would probably be the simplest solution to hot air.... or am I full of it!
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
17.42 KB |
| Viewed: |
19142 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Firebrewmedic43
Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee
Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout
Working on: Helles
|
| Link Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:09 am Post subject: aeration |
|
|
not much to add to this thread just showing my set up with inline aeration. I always need a blow off tube now when adding 5.5 gallons to a 6.8 gallon glass carboy. I use medical grade O2, just because I have an inexpensive source for it. my stone is 5 microns, inserted in the tee. I set my regulator on 2 lpm for the last 2 or so gallons going into the carboy.
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
214.71 KB |
| Viewed: |
19132 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Do you have a check valve in the air line or turn the o2 on before starting transfer?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Firebrewmedic43
Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee
Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout
Working on: Helles
|
| Link Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
I dont have a check valve. I do get a little wort in the O2 tubing but it is minimal. When I do turn on my O2 tank it pushes it back out of the tubing. I've thought about rotating the Tee 90 degrees so its pointing up. i may still do that if it becomes a problem. I always rinse my O2 tubing after I'm done and sanitize it with
star-san prior to using it. My chiller gets rinsed after my brew session and star-san prior to use. this may be over kill since I recirculate boiling wort through the chiller for the last 20 minutes of my boil. I guess one can never be too cautious.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have seen on this forum advice against circulating at end of boil but unless there are really good reasons not to I think I will do this in future. I have been using starsan and then just running boiling wort through coil until reached the end of the delivery tube and then turn off the pump and let it stand for 10mins. I would prefer to circulate.
Out of interest, when you are ready to begin chilling, do you continue to circulate while adjusting for final temp? or do you deliver some hot to the fermenter. Only, with the temp gauge being in the flow you can't measure unless the wort is flowing so you either have to deliver hot water to the fermenter or cooled water back to the boiler.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Firebrewmedic43
Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee
Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout
Working on: Helles
|
| Link Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
I circulate at the 20 min mark to sanitize the chiller. once my boil is complete, I quit circulating to allow for the whirlpool effect to work. when I began chilling and going to the fermenter, the first half gallon or so goes in at about 90-100. by my 2 gallon mark wort is coming out of my chiller around 70 and that's right now during the summer. Spring, fall and winter I can achieve close to 60 degrees easily. My chiller is 30 feet of 3/8 copper tubing inside about 30 feet of 3/4 copper tubing. IMHO I've got friends with plate chillers that can not duplicate how fast this chiller brings down the temp. I certainly feel that by the end of the wort transfer I'm definitely at ale pitching temp.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Firebrewmedic43
Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee
Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout
Working on: Helles
|
| Link Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:46 am Post subject: chiller |
|
|
here is a better picture of my chiller
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
165.12 KB |
| Viewed: |
19112 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimboh
Joined: 25 Mar 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Halifax NS
|
| Link Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
em, showing my ignorance what is the whirlpool effect?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
Log in
Register
User Control Panel
Private Messages
Club Memberships
Search
Memberlist
Photo Albums
Forum FAQ
