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Ozarks Mountain Brew
Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
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 Link Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Ok Lets just name this issue the Red October syndrome lol
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jphussey
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Ok, batch #2 complete, here's an update:
I initially did NOT see air bubbles in the MLT out hose immediately after doughing in. Both pumps are full open and you can see the wort is still really cloudy. See the video here:
After about 20 minutes, the air bubbles in the MLT out hose returned. I suspect this has to do with the fact that the grain bed had begun to compact and settle down a bit, thus increasing restriction for the liquid moving through the mash. You can see that they are fairly significant bubbles in this video:
I tried swapping which pump I was using, and initially that seemed to work, but in the end I saw air bubbles when using both pumps, so pretty sure it's not an issue with either of them. I was ultimately able to work around this by just backing down the ball valve on the pump. This seemed to create less suction at the MLT dip tube which seemed to accommodate the (I guess?) more restricted flow through the grain bed.
I think that the quick-disconnect is likely the problem and have ordered a new male QD for the MLT (I actually reused the ones that came with the 2nd-hand Blichmann G1 kettle I bought...so who knows where they came from. All of my female QDs are from MoreBeer).
I don't know if the crush is too tight causing a more restrictive grain bed or if it's really just as simple as the QD is leaking air. My mill is at .045" as recommended, verified with feeler gauges. Here is a pic of the crush:
I also have this vision of the dip tube inside of the MLT not actually being submersed in liquid. When I have the pumps on during the reciruclation, the sight glass in my MLT is completely empty. Is that normal? It almost feels like the dip tube is like half in liquid when the flow rate is too high and thus sucking in air. Although I can't imagine how air is actually getting into the deadspace underneath the Blichmann false bottom with all of that liquid and grain on top of it.
In any case, my next step is to replace the male QD on the MLT out. I also marked the hose I used today to ensure I use a different one next time.
Anyone else have any other thoughts or comments? I'd appreciate it very much!
-Jason
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fseider
Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
| Quote: | | But I never suspected air getting IN from a fitting, and I would have thought with a non perfect fitting liquid would leak OUT. |
Not always - it depends on the amount of pressure. Just sitting there there with the pumps off there may not be enough push from the weight of the liquid to have the QDs leak, but sucking with the pump may present more negative pressure such that air gets in. It can also depend on how the QD -> QD seal is done. Pressure from the inside towards the outside may simply push the o-ring against the QDs tighter forming a bigger seal where the opposite direction allows the o-ring to move.
I don't know if this is the issue the posters above are having however - I only mention it because I remember at least one person in the past having QDs that weren't sealing very well such that air was getting in. Their problem went away when they changed the QDs.
Kal |
That explanation makes sense. My next brew won't be for another 2 weeks or so, I'll try my fitting wrap test then and report.[/quote]
I just had a brew session last night. Unfortunately my original plan was to wrap the fittings to make sure air was not getting in. However, my MLT temp sensor went out and I had things taken apart. So I ended up with changing a few variables to get past the hurdle as I was brewing with a friend. Hence, not a definitive good troubleshooting approach to try to nail down a single root cause. However, I did end up with textbook recirculating mash success! What I did:
1 - Removed the temp probe T fitting for the MLT, and had the male hose connector directly on the valve. (This is temporary only.)
2 - I made sure I had a good circulation through all the MLT plumbing PRIOR to adding the grain. This did mean getting air out of the lines though, but this took 5 seconds - removed one line midway in the stream, placed in a container, and turned on the pump for 1 second. Reconnected, and tested. This process has been working consistently for me in testing, and since it's just water, no issues with any sticky mess. (OK, still not the rosy picture of connecting the hoses and turning on the pumps and everything working flawlessly instantly. I'm over the frustration - for the 5 to 10 seconds this takes me per brew session, I'll live with it.)
3 - After adding the grain, I did a vorlauf from the MLT out first to catch any grain that may have escaped. Two cupfuls did the trick.
The mash recirculating process was unlike I have ever seen - no air bubbles at all, a very high flow rate back to the MLT consistently, and mashout temp ramp up time was about 15 to 20 minutes as opposed to all of my other times being over an hour. MLT temp lagged 4 degrees as the HLT ramped up. I was never close to this previously!
So success! And wow - brewing is now cool and more fun! Next item is to put the T fitting back in along with a new sensor. At this stage I really do have a solid process, and if it fails after adding the T fitting, I know I have the issue narrowed down.
Thanks for all the insight everyone.
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Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
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Model 30A; SN 0130
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jphussey
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:34 am Post subject: |
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So you think the tee fitting is the problem? The fitting itself or the connections?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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jphussey
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | jphussey wrote: | | When I have the pumps on during the reciruclation, the sight glass in my MLT is completely empty. Is that normal? |
No. That means you have a stuck mash. The flow is bad through the mash such that it's pulling from elsewhere.
Kal |
Ok. This is kind of what I was afraid of. I didn't notice if the sight glass was completely empty during the first 20 minutes of the mash when I had really great flow with both pumps full open. Do you think that the stuck mash is causing there to be a lack of liquid available at the dip tube, resulting in the dip tube sucking in air along with the liquid?
Even when I dialed the ball valve on the wort pump way back, the sight glass never filled up.
A stuck mash is basically caused by a poor crush, right? Is there anything else that might be causing it on this setup? Looking at the picture of my crush above, does it seem like something is wrong with it?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| jphussey wrote: | | kal wrote: | | jphussey wrote: | | When I have the pumps on during the reciruclation, the sight glass in my MLT is completely empty. Is that normal? |
No. That means you have a stuck mash. The flow is bad through the mash such that it's pulling from elsewhere.
Kal |
Ok. This is kind of what I was afraid of. I didn't notice if the sight glass was completely empty during the first 20 minutes of the mash when I had really great flow with both pumps full open. Do you think that the stuck mash is causing there to be a lack of liquid available at the dip tube, resulting in the dip tube sucking in air along with the liquid? |
I don't know. This is not something someone can guess at from a distance.
| Quote: | | A stuck mash is basically caused by a poor crush, right? |
It's one of the possible reasons. There could be any number of reasons but given that you're running the equipment I recommend I don't know why it's happening. It may be obvious if someone was to see what happens in person, but at this time nothing sticks out from the information you've given.
| Quote: | | Looking at the picture of my crush above, does it seem like something is wrong with it? |
Looks reasonable to me!
Kal
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jphussey
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:55 am Post subject: |
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So let me update you. I am actually running 815 pumps, not 809. I think the 815 actually has a higher max flow rate, right? Maybe running it at full speed is just too fast and is compacting my grain bed. Does that pass the sniff test?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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jphussey
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Is there any benefit to a faster vorlauf vs. a slower one? If backing down the ball valve for the first 20 minutes or slow prevents the issue next time, do you see any cause for concern there?
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fseider
Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jphussey wrote: | | So you think the tee fitting is the problem? The fitting itself or the connections? |
No, i have no suspicion that the T fitting itself is the culprit. At this stage I just need to put it back into the loop. Though it was possible that air could have came in through somehow around it. My next test will tell me that, but since I will essentially only be redoing the fitting my testing has been narrowed down significantly at this stage. I really think there was a combination of issues. The fact that I have it running perfectly now at this stage, given my above actions, gives me strong confidence I have the issue resolved. Bottom line - a COUPLE of tweaks to my process as per above, presuming no additional air leaks from the MLT fittings.
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Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
---
Model 30A; SN 0130
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fseider
Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | fseider wrote: | | 2 - I made sure I had a good circulation through all the MLT plumbing PRIOR to adding the grain. |
Always do this as as it'll avoid the issues you're seeing and it'll also make sure your MLT temp stabilizes, all air is out, and so forth. It's what I recommend in my brew day step by step. If you're having issues I recommend you follow the detailed steps here exactly: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step
Kal |
Yep - I just got sloppy and overlooked that at some point. My bad, old age ....
_________________
Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
---
Model 30A; SN 0130
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fseider
Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| jphussey wrote: | | Is there any benefit to a faster vorlauf vs. a slower one? If backing down the ball valve for the first 20 minutes or slow prevents the issue next time, do you see any cause for concern there? |
To be honest, no clue. I did it slow to avoid a possible mess. Though Kal states this is not required, and I won't argue this at all, but for MY personal sanity I'll continue this for a few more batches. (Takes me about 1 minute - trivial.) At some point I'll go back to testing again without the vorlauf.
_________________
Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
---
Model 30A; SN 0130
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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jphussey
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Correct - When I open up my MLT pump ball valve after mashing in, I do so fairly fast (in one sweep). Never had any issues. That said, if a setup is different than mine and you find a process that works for you, go for it.
Kal |
Re: the pump flow speed difference between 815 and 809
| Quote: | | No. Shouldn't make a difference. |
From what I understand, the two basic ways you get a stuck mash are crushing too fine or compacting your gain bed. We've established the crush appears fine, so assume that's not the issue. Doesn't it make sense that the higher flow rate would create more suction at the MLT dip tube and thus increase the likelihood of compacting the grain bed as compared to a lower flow rate? What am I missing here that leads you to say the flow rate (and correspondingly the force of suction on the grain bed) doesn't make a difference?
I guess the bottom line is that if there is no disadvantage to just slowing down the flow during the first 20 minutes or so of the mash, that could be a good workaround
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 664
Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Shop vac to the drain tube (to suck out all the remaining water) is also a great way to get a stuck mash.....or at least someone told me it was...lol
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| jphussey wrote: | | What am I missing here that leads you to say the flow rate (and correspondingly the force of suction on the grain bed) doesn't make a difference? |
Two reasons:
(1) I don't believe the flow rate is that different once some back pressure is applied.
(2) Hundreds are using both without issues.
You could try milling even looser, see if that makes a difference. Hard to tell from the pic but the crush looks ok. You basically want to crack the grain into 2-3 pieces. Just enough to expose the insides.
Odd that you're having these issues given that the grain bill isn't especially huge (it's an around 6.5 to 7 ABV beer if I remember correctly). I've used twice as much grain to make ~12 ABV beers without any flow issues. More grain should restrict flow even more.
There has to be something different with the way your setup's built or the way you're using it... I'm sure it'll surface and become obvious. It always does! One thing I often recommend people do is read and re-read the BREW DAY instructions very slowly just to confirm they're not glossing over something. It's human nature to skim over text and look at diagrams but there are important nuggets sprinkled throughout. Fred's issue above is a great example of how hard it is to pinpoint issues: He was having priming issues but was putting the grain and water in the MLT at the same time and then trying to prime (instead of following the steps). Unless he brought it up himself as he did, that's not something that people would usually confirm/ask as it's impossible to ask every permutation/combination of questions. It's hard to know what you don't know! 
I'd also give the grain mill article a re-read to make sure nothing's overlooked.
Kal
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Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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jphussey
Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171
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| Link Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Kal.
I'll try and go back and re-read carefully. I have done that a few times and always have it open during the two brews I've done so far. I'll keep at it.
To confirm, I should see a fairly stable liquid level in the sight gauge of the MLT during the entire mash?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11121
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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