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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:52 pm Post subject: Nonessential items on panel? |
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Would you include a timer and a mashtun PID on your panel if you had to do it over? Are they worth the extra cost?
Also, would it be better to mount the pump switches closer to the pump and away from the panel, or does it make more sense to have them on the panel? You'd have to arrange for GFI protection on the brew stand-mounted pump switches and make sure they were water/wort sealed I guess.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11122 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Nonessential items on panel? |
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stickyfinger wrote: | Would you include a timer and a mashtun PID on your panel if you had to do it over? Are they worth the extra cost? |
Yes and yes. In a heartbeat.
Without a timer, I'd have to use some external timer. I like having it integrated with the alarm buzzre and light in the panel.
Without a mashtun PID, you'd have no idea when you've reached your mash temps, either with a single infusion mash, or step mashes, or mashout.
Quote: | Also, would it be better to mount the pump switches closer to the pump and away from the panel, or does it make more sense to have them on the panel? |
I prefer having all the controls in one spot.
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Nonessential items on panel? |
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kal wrote: |
Without a timer, I'd have to use some external timer. I like having it integrated with the alarm buzzer and light in the panel.
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I was just thinking that using the very loud alarm buzzer integrated into the panel with the timer seems like a nice feature. I haven't checked to see if the timer you chose can be programmed for multiple alarms. That seems like it might be a nice feature if it's not too complicated to set up.
kal wrote: |
Without a mashtun PID, you'd have no idea when you've reached your mash temps, either with a single infusion mash, or step mashes, or mashout.
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Well, I thought maybe I'd simplify the panel by just having an analog thermometer on my mashtun outlet connection. It's not much extra for the mashtun PID and RTD though I suppose.
kal wrote: |
I prefer having all the controls in one spot.
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I like the idea of keeping the controls all away from any possible spillage and moisture as well.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11122 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Nonessential items on panel? |
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stickyfinger wrote: | I like the idea of keeping the controls all away from any possible spillage and moisture as well. |
Yup. If you build per my instructions, you'll meet NEMA 4 / IP65 standards for spillage/moisture doesn't matter.
More info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1?page=3
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Last edited by kal on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I like it that all of the switches in the panel are well-protected, whereas any switches outside of the panel would have to use special boxes, etc. anyway.
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helios
Joined: 07 May 2013 Posts: 30 Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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I did not include a timer and I am very happy with that decision. I did not include a mash PID and I regret that decision.
Timer: it's simple, I already wear a digital watch that has all the same functionality. I do countdown timers on it during the brewday, and that way when I leave the room I have the timer with me.
Mash PID: my original thinking was, it's a waste to have a PID and not have it controlling anything (using it just like a thermometer). But, I didn't find any satisfactory thermometers for any cheaper, so should have gone with it. My "solution" was to buy an extra thermocouple probe for the MLT outlet. Luckily it has the same calibration offset as another one of the probes, which makes the following process work.
So my boil PID does double-duty. During the mash, I plug that cord into the MLT outlet probe, and then when it's time to fire up the kettle (and MLT temp does not concern me any longer) I switch the cable over to the BK probe. It works fine, but given how much time went into building this system, I wish I had not cut this corner.
Long term I might put a single PID in a small box, hook it up to a nearby 120V outlet, and monitor the mash temp that way so that I'm not switching the wires back and forth. But it's so far down my to-do list it's just not going to happen.
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Funkalizer
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 11
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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What about the Amp and Volt meters?
Include or skip if you live a relatively stable country, electricity wise?
I know meters are pretty and all but they do take up some space at the front and the transformer/power supply/shunt are pretty hungry for real estate inside the panel.
Again, if the electricity is pretty stable all year around, do they serve any purpose other than being pretty?
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James Edmonton
Joined: 29 Jan 2014 Posts: 124 Location: Edmonton, AB
Drinking: West Coast Dry Hopped IPA
Working on: Session Ale
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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If you want to save space inside and out you can go with a combined meter. This also eliminates the need for the extra transformers. The voltage is not critical but the amperage reading is a quick way to tell if everything is firing correctly and so forth.
I have a B to B setup so this may be more useful for me than others using another setup.
So no, it is not critical, but it is helpful at times, and another way to monitor your setup.
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foomench
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 Posts: 704 Location: Longmont, CO
Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad
Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the amp meter isn't to check on the power supply coming in, but to insure that the system is working as intended.
_________________ Brewery equipment photos (et al) here: https://picasaweb.google.com/114861423235799103704
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skelley
Joined: 24 Feb 2012 Posts: 210 Location: brookfield, wisconsin
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:54 am Post subject: |
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I definitely would keep the mlt pid and the timer. I want to know how my mash ton is tracking temperature compared to the HLT. I do not wear a watch but the ability to look up at the panel to get all the information you need at one glance does not seem to be worth losing to save a tiny amount of money from eliminating the timer compared to the entire investment. I do not use the volt/amp meter but that is probably because all is working fine.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11122 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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skelley wrote: | I do not wear a watch but the ability to look up at the panel to get all the information you need at one glance does not seem to be worth losing to save a tiny amount of money from eliminating the timer compared to the entire investment. |
That's part of the reason I included it - I wanted the panel to be all encompassing, not require me to have something else (like a watch, iphone, etc). I do wear a watch most of the time too, but that's today... I wanted the panel to have everything I needed regardless of what I may have 20+ years from now.
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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helios wrote: | I did not include a timer and I am very happy with that decision. I did not include a mash PID and I regret that decision.
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I thought about that too, but it seems to make sense to just have all three as long as I'm doing it, otherwise i need an analog one i have to go look at all of the time. seems stupid to save $40 when it would a lot cooler and easier with the extra PID.
I think I'll put on the timer too, just to have it. I have sometimes shut off my alarm on my watch and then forgotten about it or bumped a button and shut off the timer, so i just want one. I like the Auber one that I can program.
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'm settling in on one of 3 designs. I keep coming back to the design that is closest to Kal's (4 pids/timers in a row - 2.png below), as it is more visually comforting to me at an initial glance, more intuitive, more symmetrical in my mind. I thought putting the timer at the top or bottom on its own would make more sense, but it just doesn't look right mixing the round buttons/lights with the square shape of the pid/timer. I don't need the alarm on-off for the timer, but i kept in on 2.png for symmetry mainly. 1.png with the timer at the top is kind of nice too though.
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James Edmonton
Joined: 29 Jan 2014 Posts: 124 Location: Edmonton, AB
Drinking: West Coast Dry Hopped IPA
Working on: Session Ale
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
I feel I must add a note of caution to some of your suggested changes - even if only to have you give a moments pause for consideration. Primarily it is this - saving a few bucks now may not be worth the future frustration of eliminating something that you may find out later you really should have included. There are other places to save money that can be changed much easier in the future. Once your panel is completed it will be a much bigger hassle to change it later - if you so desire.
Kal really has done an excellent job in planning the design and considering what is important to the design. Some of us have modified it some to make it better fit our particular uses, but most have generally included similar items. The small amount you may save in eliminating these few items is hardly worth (in my opinion) the loss of functionality you may experience. What you save here, you may ultimately have to pay for other places anyway. For example, if you eliminate the pump switches you will need to add an additional GFCI circuit and other switches. You don't save much (if any) money, and lose the benefit of a central place for everything.
Anyway, do what you want, but I would suggest you try to save money other places than the panel (go with cheaper pots or something). If you can't afford it, then you might want to wait a bit and save some more so that you can end up with the best panel for you. Not trying to limit your creativity, just trying to prevent you from making some choices you may soon regret.
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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James Edmonton wrote: | Hello,
I feel I must add a note of caution to some of your suggested changes - even if only to have you give a moments pause for consideration. Primarily it is this - saving a few bucks now may not be worth the future frustration of eliminating something that you may find out later you really should have included. There are other places to save money that can be changed much easier in the future. Once your panel is completed it will be a much bigger hassle to change it later - if you so desire.
Kal really has done an excellent job in planning the design and considering what is important to the design. Some of us have modified it some to make it better fit our particular uses, but most have generally included similar items. The small amount you may save in eliminating these few items is hardly worth (in my opinion) the loss of functionality you may experience. What you save here, you may ultimately have to pay for other places anyway. For example, if you eliminate the pump switches you will need to add an additional GFCI circuit and other switches. You don't save much (if any) money, and lose the benefit of a central place for everything.
Anyway, do what you want, but I would suggest you try to save money other places than the panel (go with cheaper pots or something). If you can't afford it, then you might want to wait a bit and save some more so that you can end up with the best panel for you. Not trying to limit your creativity, just trying to prevent you from making some choices you may soon regret. |
Thanks for the input, James. I should make a few clarifying comments:
The green and blue circles are push-button illuminated switches (so the pump switches ARE on the panel.)
The yellow circles are lights that turn on when the respective element is firing.
The red circle is the flashing alarm buzzer
The timer will be an Auber JSL-73B, not the Omega on Kal's panel (so no momentary pushbutton is required with this timer.)
I agree that saving a little money in some areas will be a dumb idea. I already came to the conclusion that it makes sense to have 3 PIDs even if the mash PID isn't a "controller." I like the idea of single illuminated switches and don't see the need for the volt/amp meter. Other than that, I'm pretty similar to Kal. He definitely thought this out very thoroughly, and I'm not really changing too much, just making it a little more to my personal preferences. Sorry for the confusion!
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Jerz
Joined: 17 Nov 2013 Posts: 235 Location: Canton, Georgia
Drinking: Rye IPA (brewed a year and a half ago)
Working on: ESB
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Link Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:45 am Post subject: |
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I personally like to see both the volt and amp meter.... it's nice to be able to see your voltage and amperage at any given time... but to each his own.
_________________ Jerz
Head Brewer and #1 Consumer
2dogsBrewing - Canton, GA
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I realize this thread is several years old, but I had a thought and didn't want to start a new topic.
Does anyone see any downsides to wiring a 120v outlet inside the cabinet and using old apple iphone chargers to run the amp and volt meters?
_________________ Visit dp Brewing Company
Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
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701pilot
Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 50 Location: northern california
Drinking: Bohemian Pilsner,Caribou Slobber, Munich Helles, Weissbier, Black Bute Porter, RIS, Irish Red Ale
Working on: Milk Chocolate Stout
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Link Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Some of the newer meters run off of the line voltage and don't need the transformers. That elemanates some parts. Less to break down.
_________________ Mark
I can't change the laws of physics but with enough horse power I can chase it into submission.
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jeremy2027
Joined: 23 Apr 2016 Posts: 12 Location: Groves, TX
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Link Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Check these out
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7_50
I personally used the single volt meter as well as the single amp meter instead of the dual one They both run off AC voltage that you already have access to in your panel. They saved me a bit of space on the backboard and its a little cleaner of an install. Not to mention less components to possibly go bad. As for the Amp and Volt meter I just pulled it off the incoming power legs then put the "donut" on one side of the 240v hots and ran the hot bus (fused wire) through it.
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SomeBeerDrinker
Joined: 05 Nov 2016 Posts: 1
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Link Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Since someone was kind enough to already revive this thread...
The power and pump indicator lights seem superfluous.
-The PID's and timer give visual confirmation of system power beyond that given by the key position.
-A given pump light will always be illuminated when its respective switch is "on".
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