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carbing temps

 
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hopster54




Joined: 11 May 2014
Posts: 188
Location: Vancouver, Canada


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:22 pm    Post subject: carbing temps Reply with quote


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I recently made a 10 gallon batch of Kals IPA, awesome taste and aroma- truly a great IPA

I used Northern Brewer carb calculator and my keezer temp is 37f, suggested amount of corn sugar for botteling at 37f was 57 grams for 5 gallons.

Does that mean the beer should should be put back in the keezer to carb up @ 37f or can i let it carb at room temp?

I think i misinterpreted whether i should carb the beer at 37f or room temp- i dont want gushers or bottle bombs.

T Y

Mug
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am assuming you are bottle conditioning your beer and not kegging with CO2 pressure.

The temperature of the beer for sugar addition is a bit confusing. That temperature does not have any effect on the amount of carbonation from the addition of the sugar. While fermenting the wort there is CO2 being generated. Most of that carbonation escapes to the atmosphere, however some is retained in the beer as carbonation. The amount of CO2 in solution is dependent on the temperature AT FERMENTATION. After the fermentation is complete any reduction in temperature will not increase the level of carbonation. The amount of sugar is calculated to generate CO2 that is added to the CO2 currently in solution after fermentation.

Therefore the temperature you should use to find the amount of sugar is the fermentation temperature which should be 66-70F. After bottling the bottles need to be keep at the same temperature 66-74F (basically room temperature) to allow the additional sugar to ferment and generate the CO2 for the carbonation.

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Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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hopster54




Joined: 11 May 2014
Posts: 188
Location: Vancouver, Canada


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply david

The calculators are a little confusing, after re-entering a ferment temp of 68f rather than 37f the calculation shows i should use 2.8 oz of sugar, therefore my IPA should be in the same ball park figure using 57 grams of sugar at 37f.

Time will tell for sure.

Mug
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you mean this calculator: https://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

It does indeed call for more sugar, the higher the temperature. Odd.
The calculator may take into consideration that the lower the temperature, the more CO2 will remain in solution.

All sugar will ferment out creating carbonation. How fast that happens is temperature dependant because the yeast has to ferment out the sugar. Assuming an ale yeast, you therefore don't want to do that at 37F as the yeast will stall or take forever to ferment (if it does at all). If bottling and carb'ing using sugar, always do that at room temp: Add the sugar, bottle, wait ~2 weeks for fermentation to completely finish, then refrigerate to serving temp.

Or start kegging. Much less work. Wink

Kal

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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now for more information than you really wanted.

Carbonation in beer can get there in two different ways
1) Fermentation: During fermentation yeast break down the sugars into ethanol (C2H5OH) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2). CO2 is soluble in water (Beer is mostly water). The volume of CO2 in solution is dependent on the temperature. The colder the temperature, the more gas in solution. At typical Ale fermentation temperatures (65 – 72) the VOLS of CO2 is between 0.91 – 0.77 (+/- 0.05)
2) Over pressure with CO2. Again, CO2 is soluble in water, if you add CO2 under pressure either on top of the beer or bubble up through the beer, the CO2 will go into solution. And again the VOL of CO2 is dependent on the temperature.

If we are carbonating the beer through the kegging process, we don’t need to be concerned with the amount of CO2 from fermentation. We can look up the Pressure / Temperature combination at the CO2 VOL desired. Ie 2.2 VOLS, 38F, 8 psi or 2.2 VOLS, 44F, 11 psi

If we are bottle condition (carbonating) we have to be a bit more careful. In this case all of the carbonation is from fermentation, the original fermentation and the fermentation that occurs in the bottle. Now is it important to know the VOL of CO2 in the beer after fermentation. And again since CO2 in solution is dependent on temperature we need to know the temperature (and temperature history) of the beer. Typically the temperature history is not that important, if you look back above the VOL range after fermentation is about 0.10 VOL so not a large range. So if you fermented at 65F at the end of fermentation you will have about 0.90 VOL of CO2. If you crash chill the beer down to 35F, you will still only have 0.90 VOLS because you didn’t supply any additional CO2 to be absorbed into solution. If however you allow the beer the increase temperature to 72F, the CO2 in solution would have dropped to 0.80 VOLS. But again not a large difference.

So now we have “flat” beer with 0.90 VOLS of CO2 residual from the fermentation. If we want 2.2 VOLS in the final beer we need to add 1.3 VOLS of CO2 from additional fermentation. All of that CO2 will come from the sugar we add at bottling time. This is where that Freshman year Chemistry course is useful. (BTW, I didn’t remember any of it)

I will base on of my calculations on 10 gallons , you will need to adjust as required to match your exact volume of beer to be bottled.

Fermentation converts the Sugar to Ethonal and CO2

Corn Sugar C6 H12 O6 ● H2O >>> Ethanol 2 C2 H5 OH + Carbon Dioxide 2 CO2 + Water H20
……………………… 1 gm …………………………… 0.46 gm ……… + …………… 0.44 gm ……… + ……0.09 gm

1 Liter of CO2 weighs 1.96g / Liter (STP)

Therefore to add 1.3 VOLS of CO2 to 10 gallons (37.8L) of beer

1.3 VOLS >>> 1.3 L CO2 / L Beer x 1.96gm CO2 / L = 2.54 gm CO2 / Liter Beer

1 gm Corn Sugar yields 0.44 gm CO2

Therefore (1 g Sugar / 0.44 gm CO2) x 2.54 gm CO2 / Liter Beer = 5.77 gm Sugar / Liter Beer

37.8 L Beer x 5.77 gm Sugar / L Beer = 218 gm (7.68 oz) Corn Sugar (in 10 Gallons)

Northern Brewer Calculator: 10 gal, 2.2 VOL, 68F = 7.24 oz Corn Sugar

BYO Table: 7.8 oz ( 2 * 3.01 x 1.3)



References

https://byo.com/resources/carbonation?ref=39

https://byo.com/mead/item/1271-priming-with-sugar?ref=39

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

http://mcdantim.com/distributor-tools/calculators/

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap


Last edited by David_H on Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hopster54




Joined: 11 May 2014
Posts: 188
Location: Vancouver, Canada


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_H wrote:
I'm working on a very thorough answer that will either clear everything up or confuse you beyond belief. :-0


Ha, Ha........already confused with this, i normally keg my beer, just bottled 5 gals for my brother.

Thanks again david.
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hopster54




Joined: 11 May 2014
Posts: 188
Location: Vancouver, Canada


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
I assume you mean this calculator: https://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

It does indeed call for more sugar, the higher the temperature. Odd.
The calculator may take into consideration that the lower the temperature, the more CO2 will remain in solution.

All sugar will ferment out creating carbonation. How fast that happens is temperature dependant because the yeast has to ferment out the sugar. Assuming an ale yeast, you therefore don't want to do that at 37F as the yeast will stall or take forever to ferment (if it does at all). If bottling and carb'ing using sugar, always do that at room temp: Add the sugar, bottle, wait ~2 weeks for fermentation to completely finish, then refrigerate to serving temp.

Or start kegging. Much less work. Wink

Kal



Thanks Kal, that is the calculator i used and things do seem confusing.

Other calculators take into account whether you bottle at 68f or if you crash cool the beer which i did, tastybrew calculator mentions cold crashing and their calculation calls for slightly less priming sugar.

And it sure makes sense not to bottle condition an ale yeast as low as 37f

When i used to bottle beer after fermentation there IS a fair amount of residual co2 in solution, after cold crashing for 2 weeks not so much, thats were i get confused as how much sugar i really need after cold crashing vs bottle condition at room temp with more co2 in solution.

Time will tell, years ago i had a batch or two that were gushers when uncapped, and it wasnt for lack of sanitation or infection.

I have been kegging for the last 4 yrs.

On another note- i made a 10 gallon batch of your dry irish stout which i kegged 4 days ago, tastes a little harsh now but has all the taste and aroma that will mellow out to be a great stout, next for kegging will be an oatmeal stout brewed to your instruction regarding the dry irish stout, smells awesome.

thanks Kal- David



Mug
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A shorter answer.
At typical Ale Fermentation there will be 0.85 VOL of CO2 in solution after fermentation
It requires 16.8 gm Corn Sugar / VOL / gallon Beer
Therefore
5 gallons Beer at 2.2 VOL >> (2.2 - 0.85) x 5 Gal x 16.8 g Sugar = 113.4 g (3.99 oz)

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Kal Clone Controller
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SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hopster54 wrote:
Thanks Kal, that is the calculator i used and things do seem confusing.

David explained it well: They tell you to use more sugar if the temp's higher because after fermentation there will be less CO2 left dissolved in the beer at higher temps, so you need to replace more. This is because CO2 comes out of solution more at higher temperatures.

If you fermented a lager at 50F and never let it warm up (ever) then when it's time to bottle you need less sugar as there's already going to be more CO2 in solution than if you fermented an ale at 66F.

Kal

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silverspoons




Joined: 21 Dec 2010
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Location: Webster NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've bottle conditioned for 8 years and 57g per 5 gallons seems really low.
I've made a beer similar to Kal's IPA dozens of times and bottle conditioned it at room temp ( on my basement floor at about 62 degree, and i use 120 g of sugar per 5.5 gal and never had a gusher and generally perfect carbination after 2 to 3 weeks


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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would recommend adding some more sugar, recapping and storing at room temp. The make some carb drops that would be very easy to add to your bottles. I've used them before with great success. Learned real quickly that if you add the drops to beer, be ready to cap right away. It will make more since once you try...
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hopster54




Joined: 11 May 2014
Posts: 188
Location: Vancouver, Canada


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanks to all for your thoughts and info, seems that i i indeed misinterpreted the calculator.

2.8 oz corn sugar seems to be more in line with end ferment temp, i dont have time to uncap all the bottles right now and add more sugar so i may just leave it as is and learn from my mistake.

Looks like a Christmas gift to my brother in the form of a new 2.5 gallon keg is in order, i hate spending all that time on cleaning and sanitizing bottles.

Will certainly use the links on this site when i order a new keg.

Thanks again for the expert help guys Very Happy

Mug
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