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Randy Moshers Ideal Pale Ale Water Profile

 
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rivetcatcher



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Randy Moshers Ideal Pale Ale Water Profile Reply with quote


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Hey,

Im currently trying to work out my additions when using RO water using the following calculator:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/#a_aid=5982783965026

I am looking to obtain Randy Moshers Ideal Pale Ale water as per the Electric Brewery Pale Ale recipe.

I have a few questions:

1) When using RO water should I enter my source minerals as 0? I have read the RO water is essentially a blank canvas.
2) Will HCO3 also be 0 on RO water?
3) What should be the target HCO3 as its not listed in the recipe.

FYI I will be treating all of my water (20 gallons) in the HLT to match Randys profile. I know we have discussed this in a previous topic but for my first brew day Im just trying to keep it simple.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Rivet
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Randy Moshers Ideal Pale Ale Water Profile Reply with quote

rivetcatcher wrote:
1) When using RO water should I enter my source minerals as 0? I have read the RO water is essentially a blank canvas.

Correct.

Quote:
2) Will HCO3 also be 0 on RO water?

Correct.

Quote:
3) What should be the target HCO3 as its not listed in the recipe.

That's not really a question that makes sense. Let me explain:

The HCO3 (bicarbonate) level, or sometimes referred to as alkalinity (CaCO3) (same thing basically - just expressed differently), is a measure of how much acid the water can neutralize. If any changes are made to the water that could raise or lower the pH value, bicarbonate/alkalinity acts as a buffer, protecting the water from sudden shifts in pH. Minerals (salts) in water increase the bicarbonate/alkalinity level. Hard water (water with lots of minerals) will have higher alkalinity.

So higher alkalinity simply means that the water's pH is not going to change as much when adding salts that change the pH up or down, or when adding something like lactic acid to lower the mash.

Add salts to get the flavour profile you want first (for example, Randy's ideal Pale Ale numbers that you mention) and don't worry about then bicarbonate/alkalinity level. Then measure your mash pH and if it isn't low enough (either because there's not many dark grains to help bring the pH down far enough and/or your water has a high bicarbonate/alkalinity level) you can add some lactic or other acid until you hit the target. We don't usually add more salts that help bring pH down in order to hit a target pH because the salts also play with the flavour while straight acids will not (as long as used withing certain limits).

So there really isn't a "target" alkalinity for a beer recipe, at least not one I concern myself with. That said, really hard water (high mineral content to start with) is usually high in pH and will have high alkalinity and you often won't be able to hit the salt/mineral profiles you want to start with. So there's certainly water that will never work well to hit certain target salt numbers, but you'll know that right up front by plugging in the numbers.

More info in my water adjustments guide: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment

Good luck!

EDIT: I took a look at the link you provided to brewersfriend and they do seem to offer alkalinity "targets" for certain profiles and show how adding chalk or baking soda makes the water harder (higher alkalinity) and give suggestions on whether the alkalinity level is suitable for light/amber/dark beers, or possibly too high and they suggest cutting with RO water. Most brewers do not use these salts (I don't usually). I also don't try to purposely make my water harder for certain styles (would make sense mostly with some UK styles I would imagine). For what it's worth, if you're using RO water with basically zero alkalinity, I would therefore not worry about alkalinity. If someone was using really hard water (high alkalinity) they likely won't be able to hit most salt targets because the numbers will already be too high so they need to dilute. So a bit of a catch-22 which results in alkalinity as being something I don't recommend people worry about if they're adjusting their water as they'll find out right at the start if it's too high (high alkalinity = high salt numbers).

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue May 16, 2017 4:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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rivetcatcher



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that Kal,

That's cleared things up a lot.

Rivet
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck! Let us know how the beer turns out!

Kal

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rivetcatcher



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, below is my recommended additions for 20 gallons as per the brewers friend calc using RO water:

23g Gypsum
9 g Calcium Chloride
21g Epsom Salt

It states under Ion Balance for Flavor, Color and PH that the Sulphate: Chloride ratio = Highly bitter.
Alkalinity - Pale beer 0-50ppm


Does this all look ok?
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kal
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Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds about right.

Randy Mosher's ideal pale ale numbers are: Ca=110, Mg=18, Na=17, Cl=50, S04=350
I tend to go a bit lower on SO4 like so (but it won't make a huge difference): Ca=110, Mg=18, Na=16, Cl=50, S04=275

When I plug your numbers into EZWaterCalc assuming RO water (all zero's) to start and 20 gallons, I get:

Ca=101, Mg=26, Na=0, Cl=57, S04=278

So very close to my numbers. Don't worry about the lack of Na, though if you want some, a pinch of regular salt (NaCl) or baking soda (NaHCO3) can get you there.

Kal

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rivetcatcher



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will the lack of Na make a difference?
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doubt it. Depends how much you add. Normally in brewing you want to keep Na low.

Kal

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