Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ

Bad lag during mash out
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Using Your Brewery
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Master




Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Drinking: Naked Singularity Stout, Hurricane Bohemian Pilsner, Pineapple Cider, Ich bin ein Berlinerweiss, AbbyNormal Glutton Free Lambic

Working on: Vienna Lager. Witty name to follow.


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:03 pm    Post subject: Bad lag during mash out Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
I'm running a 50A Kal Clone controller.

HLT is a 15g pot, MLT is Keggle. Plumbed the same as Kal.

It holds Mash temp rock solid with about a 2 degree delta between the two..

When I turn it up to 170 to mash out and sparge, it takes forever to ramp.. HLT takes 10 minutes which is about right for the water volume and 5500W element..

MLT is taking a long time to come up. Like 20 minutes after the HLT is at 169 to get to 167.

Flow rate looks good.

Any ideas?
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a heat transfer issue from HLT -> MLT. Could be an MLT flow issue, could be an inefficient heat transfer. We need more info.

What pumps? What speed are they running?
What do you have your mill gap set to when you milled your grain? What was the grain for this batch? How many pounds was used?
What length and pipe diameter is used for the HERMS coil?
Where are the temp probes?
Are the temp probes calibrated? How?
Got any pictures of the entire setup?

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Master




Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Drinking: Naked Singularity Stout, Hurricane Bohemian Pilsner, Pineapple Cider, Ich bin ein Berlinerweiss, AbbyNormal Glutton Free Lambic

Working on: Vienna Lager. Witty name to follow.


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mill was .045 (I have a crap unadjustable mill at the moment)
Chugger pump. Can't remember model off the top of my head. I'm flowing about 3-4 gpm wide open during mash. I thought it may have been a clog in the false bottom, but I filled a 2 quart pitcher in under 10 seconds from the hose.

HERMS is 12mm x 15m.

Temp probe is in the suction for both pumps (bottom valve, Teed in)

RTDs calibrated using the steady state temperature and a calibrated thermometer I borrowed from work. Both within 1 degree.

Picture to follow.

Grain bill
9 lbs 5.1 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 61.1 %
1 lbs 12.9 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 11.9 %
1 lbs 12.9 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 11.9 %
14.5 oz Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 4 5.9 %
8.2 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.4 %



wort pump and chiller.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  63.86 KB
 Viewed:  25988 Time(s)

wort pump and chiller.jpg



HLToutlet.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  51.76 KB
 Viewed:  25988 Time(s)

HLToutlet.jpg



MLT21.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  48.89 KB
 Viewed:  25988 Time(s)

MLT21.jpg



HLT-Fireup.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  55.74 KB
 Viewed:  25988 Time(s)

HLT-Fireup.jpg


Back to top
Master




Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Drinking: Naked Singularity Stout, Hurricane Bohemian Pilsner, Pineapple Cider, Ich bin ein Berlinerweiss, AbbyNormal Glutton Free Lambic

Working on: Vienna Lager. Witty name to follow.


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water pump is running full bore on recirc.. 6 gpm is what I'm getting out of it.
Back to top
Master




Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Drinking: Naked Singularity Stout, Hurricane Bohemian Pilsner, Pineapple Cider, Ich bin ein Berlinerweiss, AbbyNormal Glutton Free Lambic

Working on: Vienna Lager. Witty name to follow.


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whole setup


wholesetup.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  80.93 KB
 Viewed:  25985 Time(s)

wholesetup.jpg


Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So not really sure. Lots of things are different from my setup so it's hard to comment.

Was the malt bill larger than most beers you make? That would account for a slower rise than you're used to as it takes longer.
Is this the first beer that took longer?

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Master




Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Drinking: Naked Singularity Stout, Hurricane Bohemian Pilsner, Pineapple Cider, Ich bin ein Berlinerweiss, AbbyNormal Glutton Free Lambic

Working on: Vienna Lager. Witty name to follow.


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but also the first I have done in the summer. It was consistent over the two batches today though.. Maybe I'm just noticing it and it's always taken this long.

Remembering my heat transfer from about 1000 years ago, nothings changed as far as q=ha (Ta-Tb) so it must be the heat capacity of the mash.. It is a bigger than usual grain bill. I can run the numbers later tonight.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok - may be completely normal.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
kprovencher




Joined: 21 Nov 2016
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you find out your trouble ?

I got exactly the same thing:

Herm: 50 feet SS Herm with approximatly the same tubing lenght as Kal.

Differences:
- Mash temperature in the grain (SS Brew Tech 20G MashTun)
- HLT temperature in the lauter

Mill gap: 0.040-041

At the beginning, I put water in my HLT and my mashtun (my hlt is not big enough) and recirculate everything. When my HLT hits my temperature, it's taking a while (30-45 minutes may be) before hitting my mash temperature. That may be normale. but the fac is that can't do better then 3 Celcius delta between my HLT and my Mashtun. (Not sure if the 3 degrees is an constant or not.. futur will tell my)

My biggest problem:

When i'm mashing, I can't do full speed recirculation because my mashtun get stock and I need to rest for 3-5 minutes and then try again. Sometime, at low speed it take my 20 minutes to have continious flow out of the mashtun. To hit back my temperature it then taking infinite time.

Any advice ?

Thanks!



10376327_879831912114044_4603565376426814525_n.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  44.11 KB
 Viewed:  25561 Time(s)

10376327_879831912114044_4603565376426814525_n.jpg



10325769_879831978780704_7113193966404652674_n.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  62.35 KB
 Viewed:  25561 Time(s)

10325769_879831978780704_7113193966404652674_n.jpg


Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kprovencher wrote:
Differences:
- Mash temperature in the grain (SS Brew Tech 20G MashTun)
- HLT temperature in the lauter

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean the mash temp lags behind the HLT temp?

Quote:
Mill gap: 0.040-041

That's pretty tight. You mention your mashtun gets stuck so you are having flow issues with the equipment you are using. It's different from what I use/recommend so it's hard to comment. Given the flow issues I would mill looser at 0.50". That's the first thing I'd try. Whenever someone has flow issues, milling looser is always a good idea.

Quote:
My biggest problem:

When i'm mashing, I can't do full speed recirculation because my mashtun get stock and I need to rest for 3-5 minutes and then try again.

You're either milling too fine, have too much grain without husk (such as wheat), or are using have a poorly performing false bottom (or a combination of the above).

Other information that would be useful to know:

What pumps are you using? What speed are they running?
What was the grain for this batch? How many pounds was used?
Where are the temp probes that you're using to determine the temp offset?
Are the temp probes calibrated? How?
What hoses? What is the inner diameter? What is the outer diameter?

Using the thicker hoses and center inlet pumps (running full bore) I recommend can help minimize temp offsets between HLT and MLT too. There have been few people here who documented that changing to these parts reduced and/or eliminated the temp differential they were seeing.

Not that some lag is normal: The MLT will always take longer to get to temp than the HLT, but if you use the recommended parts and follow my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP, your MLT should eventually also hit the target temp you set in the HLT. That said, if you don't, no big deal. Learn what the offset (differential) is and simply set your HLT higher.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
rcrabb22




Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 462
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it the temp of the MLT lags behind the HLT by about 10 - 15 minutes. I brewed this morning and mash was @152F when I started rise to 168F. The HLT rose steadily up to 162 in about 15 min but the MLT sat at 152. At this point the MLT started it's climb in temperature but stopped at 167 while my HLT reached 169F.

If I were to hazzard a guess it would seem the warmer water returned the top of the MLT takes a while to flow through the MLT and reach the temp probe mounted in the tee on the output valve.

I guess the good thing it indicates the warmer water isn't finding a fast path through the MLT.
Back to top
mcl




Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 155



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As other have said this "lag" is going to happen no matter what. If you cannot recirculate the mash at a high level that is one thing you can address. As Kal said it is probably a combination of the crush and the false bottom. It could also be an issue with the pump.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're talking about two different things here. So just to be clear:

Lag: The time delay between the MLT and HLT heating up. The HLT will always get to the target temperature first. The MLT will take a few minutes longer. This is true of all setups and is simply because the HLT heating element heats the water in the HLT directly and the MLT wort is heated by passing through the HERMS coil, so it's indirect, and there's a delay.

Offset: On some setups the MLT will *never* reach the HLT temperature due to using different hoses, pumps, etc instead of those recommended in the build instructions. One these setups the HLT should be set a to a higher temperature to compensate. For example, if you wish to mash in the MLT at 152F and with the HLT is set to 152 the MLT never gets above 150F, the offset is 2 degrees. Set the HLT 2 degrees higher.

Having stuck recirculation is something completely separate as well. If you use the recommend parts as per the build instructions and brew following the BREW DAY STEP BY STEP instructions, you will not have flow issues or stuck recirculation. Stuck (or poor) recirculation will also affect the lag and possibly the offset mentioned above.

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Spike Innovations
TheElectricBrewery.com manufacturer



Joined: 26 Feb 2011
Posts: 246
Location: ME

Working on: Your Brewery!


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kprovencher wrote:
Did you find out your trouble ?

I got exactly the same thing:

Herm: 50 feet SS Herm with approximatly the same tubing lenght as Kal.

Differences:
- Mash temperature in the grain (SS Brew Tech 20G MashTun)
- HLT temperature in the lauter

Mill gap: 0.040-041

At the beginning, I put water in my HLT and my mashtun (my hlt is not big enough) and recirculate everything. When my HLT hits my temperature, it's taking a while (30-45 minutes may be) before hitting my mash temperature. That may be normale. but the fac is that can't do better then 3 Celcius delta between my HLT and my Mashtun. (Not sure if the 3 degrees is an constant or not.. futur will tell my)

My biggest problem:

When i'm mashing, I can't do full speed recirculation because my mashtun get stock and I need to rest for 3-5 minutes and then try again. Sometime, at low speed it take my 20 minutes to have continious flow out of the mashtun. To hit back my temperature it then taking infinite time.

Any advice ?

Thanks!


kprovencher-

I have an SS Brewtech Insulated mash tun as well. These do not seem to work well with the EB setup as documented and I too run into flow issues with the tun. I have come to the following assumptions:

1. The outlet of the SS insulated mash tun is too small, it is a ~1/4" center drain that feeds into a 1/2" NPT fitting. It cannot simply fill fast enough to warrant a pump to recirculate. This causes a massive pressure differential in the mash bed and ultimately compacts the bed if anything more than a trickle through re-circulation is used. This is of course easier with simpler mashes, but I have run into issues with even 30% wheat or flaked corn.

2. The insulated mash tun is really unnecessary with a HERMS setup. This tun is designed for standard infusion mashes with no re-circulation

3. The standard false bottom of this tun stinks for recirculation. I've debated buying a 20g Blichmann false bottom as it should fit this kettle as well to see if it is any better, but at that point I might as well buy a Blichmann kettle anyway.

The SS Brewtech kettle with whirlpool fitting however is amazing. Great trub piles and clear wort pickup with minimal fuss.

_________________
Official manufacturer for TheElectricBrewery.com. Click here to order our products!
Back to top
dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 663
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

Working on: Nothing


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to keep an eye on my SS BrewTech mash tun. I've never had a stuck mash even with 50% wheat. I did use rice hulls though. I run my pumps at full throttle while mashing.
_________________
Visit dp Brewing Company
Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
Back to top
View user's photo album (3 photos)
Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 739
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive found that each pid, temp prob and wire can read different, each has to be calibrated to that specific position and only used in that configuration, change a wire and you might get a different reading, a degree off one way or another. I thought I had the same problem but once I figured this out and calibrated everything accordingly I only have to adjust a degree or 2 once and a while depending how fast I pump.

the real issue is leveling out the htl with the mash at first, once done I don't have any lag

_________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
Ive found that each pid, temp prob and wire can read different, each has to be calibrated to that specific position and only used in that configuration, change a wire and you might get a different reading, a degree off one way or another. I thought I had the same problem but once I figured this out and calibrated everything accordingly I only have to adjust a degree or 2 once and a while depending how fast I pump.

It's actually not the position that matters, but the fact that each PID/probe combination needs to be calibrated. This is done in the PID. Complete details in my control panel setup instructions:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got another email from a user this morning who was seeing a temperature differential between the MLT and HLT and was able to make it go away by swapping out their hoses and pumps for what's recommended in the build instructions.

Use thicker walled 7/8" OD silicone hose: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/High-temperature-food-grade-silicone-tubing-1-2-ID-3-4-7-8-OD

Use these center inlet pumps: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/March-809-or-815-pump-with-high-temperature-stainless-steel-housing-3-4-MPT-center-inlet-1-2-MPT-outlet

To quote the user:

"I had originally tested the HERMS with the thinner 1/2 ID silicon and had my pumps setup with the inline heads (long story). I was landing about 1-2 degrees cooler in the mash kettle. I swapped out the pump heads for the front inlet and swapped out the silicon with what you recommend and I now hit the same temp!" - Todd W.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 739
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wouldn't you also need to upgrade all ball valves and the herms coil to 3/4 to see a real difference
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11037
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
wouldn't you also need to upgrade all ball valves and the herms coil to 3/4 to see a real difference

No. Why would you say that's required? Everything is 1/2" ID.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Using Your Brewery All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Support our site by purchasing through this link. We thank you!

Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group