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Jeff800
Joined: 09 Feb 2017 Posts: 7 Location: Eastern Washington
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:06 am Post subject: Why are kettles so much $$? |
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Hello I'm trying to get restarted brewing after 8 years dormant, brewed extract 5 gallon batches. I have been looking for new kettles wow they are expensive. So I will just throw this out there any ideas for kettles? I have looked at Spike, Blichmann, Anchor, going the keggle route.
I'm looking at going with a 3 kettle system most likely electric, though I have gas burners and could transition to electric down the road.
I have looked at Kal's system (drool) and the Spike brewing setup around $5000, anyway just wondering what others have done to get started.
Thanks Jeff
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Ozarks Mountain Brew
Joined: 22 May 2013 Posts: 737 Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:11 am Post subject: |
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look at concord kettles
_________________ "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
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ParadiseBrew
Joined: 09 Dec 2014 Posts: 83 Location: paradise, ca
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:56 am Post subject: |
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wait for the norther brewer 20% off and buy undrilled megapots... for 20+ gallons at $200 they are worth the extra $100 over a concord...
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JSB
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 Posts: 125 Location: NE Ohio
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terrell
Joined: 27 Dec 2016 Posts: 3
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I started with a cheap turkey fryer doing extract kits, then upgraded to a keggle with propane, then upgraded to a bayou classic/cooler setup, and finally ended up going electric with Blichmanns. Every step of the way I tried to save a bit of money, and every time it ended up costing me more money.
I tell everyone who is interested in brewing the same thing now - if you want to dip your toe in as a hobby, borrow a pot from someone, or even better, find someone with a 10 gallon system and share on ingredients and brew days, and start with just fermenting and packaging on your own. If you are committed enough to start buying your own gear, assume you are going to want to do 10 gallon batches at some point, and invest in at least a 15 gallon kettle from a reputable vendor. As much as I love my new kettles, the bayou classics are a decent enough kettle for how much cheaper they are (15 gallons go on sale at amazon for ~$100), and the megapots seem really sturdy (which depending on how much you move them around could be a plus or a minus.
_________________ Terrell Smith
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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terrell wrote: | I started with a cheap turkey fryer doing extract kits, then upgraded to a keggle with propane, then upgraded to a bayou classic/cooler setup, and finally ended up going electric with Blichmanns. Every step of the way I tried to save a bit of money, and every time it ended up costing me more money. |
This is why I went with and recommend Blichmann. It's the buy once / cry once approach.
Since I bought mine in 2008 there are a *TON* more kettle options than before which is really cool, but I've yet to see anything that I truly feel is better and simpler to use than Blichmann.
Key points I really like include:
- The external sight glass (protected as well) which is quick and easy to clean - does not need to be removed
- The excellent completely flat louvered false bottom with stepped edge (it's one of the reasons why my efficiency is high)
- Quick remove dip tube (no tool required) that are off to the side / out of the way
- No heavy clad bottom (useless for electric setups), making the kettle heavier, more expensive, harder to move
A lot has to do with the quick/speed at which things can be cleaned with no disassembly or tools required.
If I had to rebuild today I'd get Blichmann Boilermakers again.
I outline the reasons here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/kettles-overview
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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ParadiseBrew
Joined: 09 Dec 2014 Posts: 83 Location: paradise, ca
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Kal is right, Blichmann are the best but the cost is almost twice what a mega pot is (beer does not care what it's boiled in). Jeff, there is a deal at NortherBrewer going on right now for 20% a single item.. this would bring the 20gal pot down to $200... you can also get the all-grain kit with megapot 20's and get a false bottom and holes and more... with the 20% off it's down to $600... just saying they are good pot's and personal i like not cleaning a sight glass on my BK.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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ParadiseBrew wrote: | Kal is right, Blichmann are the best but the cost is almost twice what a mega pot is (beer does not care what it's boiled in) Jeff, there is a deal at NortherBrewer going on right now for 20% a single item.. this would bring the 20gal pot down to $200 |
20 gallon Megapot: $310, 20% off sale: $248
20 gallon Blichmann boilermaker: $415
So definitely cheaper, but not 50% less or $200. Also no sight glass on the megapot (internal markings do not work nearly as well - you have no idea where you are when boiling and when not boiling you have to constantly lift the lid to see), and the megapot is heavier due to the useless (in our setup) thick clad bottom. Their false bottom has to be attached with high temp tubing which is prone to damage from a mash paddle, isn't as easy to remove/clean, etc. Not sure if the come with a dip tube or if it has to be added. The analog thermometer (not required) adds another $40 to the cost if you want to compare more directly.
Beer doesn't care what something is boiled in, but if simplicity/repeatability is the goal Blichmann makes more sense to me. It's another $100-150 however. I look at that as a long term (20+ year) investment to making things simpler.
YMMV. Lots of different ways to make beer!
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Jeff800
Joined: 09 Feb 2017 Posts: 7 Location: Eastern Washington
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: |
So definitely cheaper, but not 50% less or $200. Also no sight glass on the megapot (internal markings do not work nearly as well - you have no idea where you are when boiling and when not boiling you have to constantly lift the lid to see), and the megapot is heavier due to the useless (in our setup) thick clad bottom. Their false bottom has to be attached with high temp tubing which is prone to damage from a mash paddle, isn't as easy to remove/clean, etc. Not sure if the come with a dip tube or if it has to be added. The analog thermometer (not required) adds another $40 to the cost if you want to compare more directly.
Beer doesn't care what something is boiled in, but if simplicity/repeatability is the goal Blichmann makes more sense to me. It's another $100-150 however. I look at that as a long term (20+ year) investment to making things simpler.
YMMV. Lots of different ways to make beer!
Kal |
Still looking and deciding on kettles, a couple things I question.
1) Sight glass many say not needed, many claim can't live without. I just brewed with a buddy he has no SG on kettles he does a RIMS so no coil in the HLT but he recirculates his mash tun. The HLT is open you can see the water and level marks inside so a SG didn't seem needed. On the MT once filled the lid is closed so a sight glass could be useful. Then the boil kettle is open you can see the amount of boil off a SG didn't seem useful.
Remember I'm coming from extract brewing using a 7 gallon brew kettle.
2) Thoughts on the tri-clad bottom sure it adds weight but if I start with gas as heat then transition to electric seems like it would be nice at least on the BK and MT. How much are you guys moving these 20 gallon kettles? Aren't you doing a CIP, running hot water through the system so no real need to move. Even so I can't see it being that much of a problem again I'm not sure.
I'm not trying to pit one kettle maker against the other to find the champion. Just to make sense of what features I might like and some reasons others like what they like.
Thanks for all the input
Jeff
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff800 wrote: | The HLT is open you can see the water and level marks inside so a SG didn't seem needed. |
You're going to loose a ton of heat if the lid's off and the heating time will be slower.
Quote: | On the MT once filled the lid is closed so a sight glass could be useful. |
Yup. I use it when:
- transferring
- matching sparge rates
It's also useful in the MLT to know if you're having flow issues as the level will drop in the sight glass.
Best thing for you to do is go through your brew process step by step and see how much it matters to you / how much you'd be affected. If you don't know what process you'll use, you can start with mine:
www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step
Quote: | Then the boil kettle is open you can see the amount of boil off a SG didn't seem useful. |
Very useful. When boiling you have no idea how much you have as it's being thrown around and there's sometimes many inches of foam so you have no idea of the level. You can't see anything at all. A sight glass is separated so the level doesn't jump around - it gives you an accurate picture of the level.
Quote: | 2) Thoughts on the tri-clad bottom sure it adds weight but if I start with gas as heat then transition to electric seems like it would be nice at least on the BK and MT. |
I've never understood heavy clad bottoms on kettles for brewing, even for gas. They're not needed as the liquid is not thick like spaghetti. This is why Blichmann never went with a heavy clad bottom. Remember that Blichmann's been around for years and there are tens of thousands of gas users using their kettles.
Quote: | How much are you guys moving these 20 gallon kettles? Aren't you doing a CIP, running hot water through the system so no real need to move. |
Depends on the brewer. I move my MLT to the side of the sink to wash it (turning it sideways). I turn my boil kettle sideways to wash the same way.
Go through your brew day step by step and decide for yourself what makes sense for you - where the pain points are. What works for one person or is important to one person may not be important to you.
Good luck!
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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itsnotrequired
Joined: 15 Sep 2015 Posts: 177 Location: central wi
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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regarding sight glasses, i have them on all three vessels but could skip the hlt in my opinion. i use the mlt glass for fly sparging. i set the flow i want into the boil kettle and then tweak the flow from the hlt such that they match. i could do so by opening the lid since heat loss while sparging isn't that big a deal but it would get annoying after a while, imo. kal is correct about watching the boil level, it is pretty darn hard to get an accurate assessment looking in the kettle, even with internal markings. the level does jump around a bit in the sight glass but not nearly as much as in the kettle itself.
i personally use spike kettles since it gave me everything i wanted at a slightly lower price point than blichmann. true that beer doesn't really care what it is made in but these sturdier, higher-end pots will last a lifetime. with great care, the thinner ones will as well but there is always the possibility of dropping it and bending it or something like that. i don't even think about that with mine. the spike kettle do have a thickened bottom for induction brewing. i don't need it and it does make the kettle heavier for what i want to do with it but so it goes. note that if you ever want to go the induction route, the blichmann's will not work, as with most other kettles.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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perogi
Joined: 12 Feb 2012 Posts: 850 Location: NH
Drinking: Perogi Pale, NEIPA, Nutter's Crossing Nut Brown Ale, Edmund Fitzgerald Porter Clone
Working on: Max's Maibock
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:48 am Post subject: |
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"How much are you guys moving these 20 gallon kettles?" - On a cold (< 20 degrees F) up two flights of stairs. Warmer weather up the bulkhead to the hose to wash out.
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itsnotrequired
Joined: 15 Sep 2015 Posts: 177 Location: central wi
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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once my hlt is emptied, i set it on the floor to dry it out. the mlt gets moved 5' over to the sink for a rinse out, then to the floor for drying. bk gets tipped into the adjacent sink for a rinse out, floor to dry. then they all go back on the brew stand. i also set my mlt on the floor when kegging, placing the carboy on the table where the mlt normally sits. so i move them around a little bit but not all over the place.
i remember taking my mlt and bk upstairs and outside to clean the first time i brewed. that was a pain in the ass, only happened once.
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I clean all my tanks where they sit. Don't move any at any point. Don't see a reason to move them.
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Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
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Ozarks Mountain Brew
Joined: 22 May 2013 Posts: 737 Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I dump my mash tun and boil kettle and take each to the sink and spray out very well along with my false bottom, I don't move my HLT at all
_________________ "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
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perogi
Joined: 12 Feb 2012 Posts: 850 Location: NH
Drinking: Perogi Pale, NEIPA, Nutter's Crossing Nut Brown Ale, Edmund Fitzgerald Porter Clone
Working on: Max's Maibock
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I wish I had the ability to clean them in my basement... that would be epic.
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wscottcross
Joined: 03 Jul 2015 Posts: 212 Location: CT
Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout
Working on: expanding my beer horizons (and my beltline)
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Link Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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perogi wrote: | I wish I had the ability to clean them in my basement... that would be epic. |
My basement is below sewer grade so I had to install an up-flush toilet and then plumb the sink to that. Works great but not a cheap solution.
_________________ Kal clone controller, 30 gallon Spike Brewing kettles, 6 tap keezer
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm lucky that my brewery is above the drain lines. I'm also very glad to have a sink, floor drain, and 15' water hose with sprayer in the brewery. I don't think I could live without any of those items.
_________________ Visit dp Brewing Company
Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
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