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Kettle Souring
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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Kettle Souring Reply with quote


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Hey all,

Whipping up a Berliner Weiss for my next batch, and was planning on kettle souring with lacto. Anyone else done this with their setup? Any concern about leaving the wort in the kettle for 2-3 days? Will the element be okay?

Cheers,
Drew

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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, to anyone that has kettle soured in our setup... did you...

1. Chill to 100, pitch bugs, then recirculate the whole souring time to keep temp constant
2. Chill to 100, pitch bugs, let it fall to room temp
3. Chill to 100, pitch bugs, warm it up every once in a while

Cheers,
Drew

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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out this link here
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28448&highlight=

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks man. Good stuff!
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Drew
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is his entire recipe.
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28593

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read through the links - great info. I wish there was more feedback on how their beers turned out though. [edit: 18DPA did said it was "delicious"].

I was thinking about doing a Berliner Weiss or gueuze soon too, but I had envisioned souring in the boil kettle instead of the MLT. I don't want to pump lacto and/or brett through my pumps, tubing, and HERMS coil and figure pitching and leaving it in the BK will reduce brewhouse contact.

My only concern is whether or not the heating element will kill the lacto it contacts when it cycles on? I know convection will help not kill all of it, but I just picture those little buggers getting fried as they pass by when the element activates. I've asked this question to BYO magazine's Mr. Wizard, and I'm told he's going to address it in the October issue. Anyone else tried this or have feedback?
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McGruber,
I haven't done this yet, but here is my mostly ignorant thoughts.
Yes, I think the Heating Element will act like a bug zapper, but you will never come close to killing off even a small fraction of the lacto bugs. They will be reproducing like rabbits on steroids.
I think all of the SS parts will be safe and can be cleaned of the lacto bugs.
I would guess that the Silicone Tubing will be safe and cleanable, but that is a guess
And the same for the Teflon / Polysofone in the pump heads.

Take this all with a 10 pound salt lick. As stated I have done this to MY equipment yet ! Laughing

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a ball valve at top of BK (for whirlpooling or whatever), you can just recirculate the soured wort as you raise the temp to boiling again. The silicone hoses and pumps are rated to withstand temps higher than 212, and this would kill all the lacto. You don't need to use the HERMS coil or anything other than the BK, a couple hoses, and the wort pump. Personally, I think I am just going to pitch the lacto into the kettle around 100 degrees and let it free fall to room temp without recirculating. From what I've gathered, if you source the proper strain of lacto, no need to keep above 70 to sour. I'm planning on using lacto plantarum and brewing a Berliner Weisse. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Until then, any more ideas/feedback welcomed!

Cheers,
Drew

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to let you know that I heard back from Ashton Lewis (BYO's Mr. Wizard). Sounds like he's answering my question in the next edition of BYO, but thought I'd give you a preview.

'In short, keeping the wort in the kettle is the preferred method used by many a small brewer concerned about contaminating their fermentation cellars. We have a sour on tap at Springfield Brewing Company right now and this is exactly how we handled the souring process. We used Lactobacillus brevis for this batch and the pH dropped to about 3.6 and is really sour. The pH drop during boiling is something we did not measure, but my guess is that it is minimal since that chemistry has to do with calcium and malt phosphates and the pH equilibrium of that buffer complex is higher. And the hop addition for most sours is quite low. The bottom line is that you can use pH and wort flavor to judge the souring process.

The key is keeping your wort as anaerobic as possible and the temperature in the 90-100F range. Boiling wort for 10-20 minutes is certainly sufficient to kill spoilage organism. Keep in mind that lactic acid bacteria don’t like hops, so it’s important to leave the hops out until the wort has been soured. I would not worry much about the heating coil because the hot area in contact with the wort volume is very low. Any cell death will be minimal as long as you don’t have some thermo-nuclear heating element. Commercial brewers use steam and the heating surface temperature is pretty warm … certainly hot enough to kill if the entire liquid were heated to the surface temperature, but this does not happen so it’s not a problem.Higher temps are cited by many generic sources, but what I have read from more specific sources consistently suggest that the more manageable range for brewers (90-100F) is also better for producing pleasant beers. If aerobic spoilage bacteria are allowed to grow you are at risk for funky, cheesy off-aromas.

We have only brewed kettle sours twice, and both times we have used a short boil to sterilize the wort prior to cooling to 90-100F and pitching with bacteria. I work for Paul Mueller Company (my day job) as our resident brewing expert and sales manager for brewing and beverage equipment and interact with many great breweries. There are 3 large craft breweries in the top 20 US breweries who have sour wort tanks incorporated into their brewhouse for these types of beers and all of these breweries use boiled, hop-free wort as the feed stock to their souring tanks. After the wort is sour, it is pumped back to the kettle where it is treated like normal wort flowing into the kettle from a lauter tun.'


I think after flame-out I'll pump wort through my chiller and back into the boil kettle until I hit 95'F and set the control panel to keep it there. I'm not going to circulate while it holds at 95 because convection from the element should take care of that, and I don't want to expose my tubing and pumps to lacto. I'll also blanket with CO2 and keep the lid on. I'm going to give this a go after an IPA and a pumpkin brew, and will let you know how it turns out.
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the final fermentation / clearing stage of my Sour Wheat. I soured in the Mash Tun with greek yogurt. The process seemed to work like a charm, don't know yet about any residual lacto contamination. I'll run a second boiling water through the hoses before I brew next. I soured for about 36 hours at 105 - 120F, then raised to 168 for Mash out and then into the BK for a 60-90 min boil with a small hop addition.

Now for my problem. I don't and can't trust my pH meter (Hanna Instruments HI98128 pHep 5pH/Temperature Tester), it won't calibrate on the 4.01pH solution and the numbers I have been getting don't seem to make sense. Therefore I don't know the pH of the wort during the process or now at the end. I do know that it is very tart. It doesn't taste bad as in the wrong kind of bugs, just real sour. Butt puckering sour!

So my question is are there any suggestions to make this a drinkable beer? My two thoughts are blend with a regular wheat to reduce the acidity and / or add some sweetness with fruit to balance out some of the tartness. Thoughts?

PS I am looking at other pH meters. Not sure if I will go expense ($100ish) and hope it works or cheap ($20ish) and not worry about it. Smile

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_H wrote:
Now for my problem. I don't and can't trust my pH meter (Hanna Instruments HI98128 pHep 5pH/Temperature Tester), it won't calibrate on the 4.01pH solution and the numbers I have been getting don't seem to make sense. Therefore I don't know the pH of the wort during the process or now at the end.

I had this exact same problem. After some back and forth over email with Hanna tech support doing some tests and calibrations they told me that the pH probe was bad. Reminded me to never put the tip in solution at a temp higher than 140' because it will damage the sensor, which I don't think I ever did. I had owned the meter for over a year, but used it less than a year - but they of course still consider that 'out of warranty'. I was able to finagle a 20% discount on a new probe, but still had to buy the replacement. They have to get permission to give a discount and you have to talk to the rep you've been dealing with to pay and give shipping info.

David_H wrote:
So my question is are there any suggestions to make this a drinkable beer? My two thoughts are blend with a regular wheat to reduce the acidity and / or add some sweetness with fruit to balance out some of the tartness. Thoughts?

I haven't done a sour yet, so take this with a grain of salt. I think both of those options seem reasonable, but consider what adding more residual yeast in solution from a wheat beer, and/or fermentable sugars from fruit will do to the flavor/ body/ alcohol content. I have some thoughts but they would be long winded. Since I'm not sure if they're even correct I'll keep them to myself. This would be a good question to ask BYO magazines' Mr. Wizard.

David_H wrote:
PS I am looking at other pH meters. Not sure if I will go expense ($100ish) and hope it works or cheap ($20ish) and not worry about it. Smile

Because of my frustrations with Hanna I bought a ThermoWorks pH meter #8100 ($169) to compare against the Hanna readings. It works better than my Hanna ever did. My only complaint is that sometimes the cables are a little annoying. It still is only accurate (and suggested to read at, due to damaging the sensor) at < 140' F. They do make the #8689 that is a handheld like the Hanna ($69). No idea if it's any good or not, but at least the company has a good reputation. There are also multiple threads on this forum about Hanna vs Milwaukee pH meters. Just do a 'Search' with those key words.
https://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tool_type=cl&merchant_id=504989e8-60a3-41a9-bf0f-e83e99fc256e&website_id=9e77af9b-d290-40aa-ab88-64605c8b8ff6&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thermoworks.com%2Fshop%2Fproducts%2Fph-humidity%2Fph%2F
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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I would come back into the old thread I created.

I missed the season on a Berliner or Gose, but I am brewing a pale sour as I type. Here is the process I followed, and I will report back with results.

1. Brewed 14 gallons of wort as normal.
2. Brought wort to a boil
3. While bringing wort to a boil, recirculated sanitzer through MLT and HERMS coil
4. Chilled wort from BK, through plate chiller, back into sanitized MLT
5. Adjusted wort pH to 4.7 with citric acid
6. Pitched lacto plantarum that I cultured from probiotic pills
7. Recirculating lacto-inoculated wort @ 115 F through HLT and HERMS coil

This is where I am in the process now. The following steps are to be done over coming days, with timing dependent on how long the lacto takes to get the wort pH where I want it.

8. I will continue holding at 115, taking pH readings every 8 hours or so, until I hit 3.5 pH
9. Once I hit 3.5 pH, I will transfer all the soured wort back to the BK
10. Boil, hop, chill, pitch yeast as normal
11. Run boiling water through the system
12. Update ya'll on how this worked for me!

The only thing, at this point, I may do differently next time is add CO2 to the MLT in an attempt to shield lacto/wort from O2 and provide best environment possible for the souring.

Wish me luck!

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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH reading last night was 4.3, so dropping slowly. I read more about my strain of lacto and learned it works better around 90 rather than the 115 I was holding. Dropped it to 90 last night and 10 hours later, it was at 3.7. Cranked it back up to 120 this morning in hope it doesn't go too low and get below 3.4 before I get back from work. We'll see!
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch that lower limit. I was dropping slowly and I lowered the temperature and I got a real quick pH change down to about 3.2-3.3. It got real tart. Not sure what to do with it now.

David

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_H wrote:
Watch that lower limit. I was dropping slowly and I lowered the temperature and I got a real quick pH change down to about 3.2-3.3. It got real tart. Not sure what to do with it now.

David


Yeah, agreed. I can handle down to 3.2... but I'm really hoping it didn't chew all the way down past 3.4-3.5 today. I will know in a couple of hours. Shocked

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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_H wrote:
Watch that lower limit. I was dropping slowly and I lowered the temperature and I got a real quick pH change down to about 3.2-3.3. It got real tart. Not sure what to do with it now.

David


Have you considered diluting and adding some DME? Not ideal, but it shouldn't take much to get it back to where you want it. Shouldn't alter the flavor TOO much...

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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, wort was 3.5 when I got home from work. Boiled and pitched 644 tonight. Things are shaping up nicely. Let's see if the 644 brings it home for the win.
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Drew
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Have you considered diluting and adding some DME? Not ideal, but it shouldn't take much to get it back to where you want it. Shouldn't alter the flavor TOO much...

Blending has been in the back of my mind, but time constraints (and other course just ignoring the problem) have kept me from proceeding. It is currently in 2 5-gallon cornies in the frig. I am sort of planning to get a six pack of commercial wheat and blend with my sour to see if I can take the edge off. I hadn't thought of a DME batch of my own. That would be much easier than another 10 gallon batch from grain. I was really concerned about messing up 2 batches of beer. As it is I am getting behind the curve. My kegs are getting low and I am at great risk of running dry. Shocked

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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TheGecko




Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David_H wrote:
Quote:
Have you considered diluting and adding some DME? Not ideal, but it shouldn't take much to get it back to where you want it. Shouldn't alter the flavor TOO much...

Blending has been in the back of my mind, but time constraints (and other course just ignoring the problem) have kept me from proceeding. It is currently in 2 5-gallon cornies in the frig. I am sort of planning to get a six pack of commercial wheat and blend with my sour to see if I can take the edge off. I hadn't thought of a DME batch of my own. That would be much easier than another 10 gallon batch from grain. I was really concerned about messing up 2 batches of beer. As it is I am getting behind the curve. My kegs are getting low and I am at great risk of running dry. Shocked


I hear you. Buying some commercial brew and cutting with that would certainly be easy and straight forward. On the other hand, I bet a couple liters of DME starter wort fermented with US-05 would get you where you need to be. I'm sure there is a calculator that can get you in the ballpark.

Time vs. money... which one can you afford to burn? Neutral

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Squid




Joined: 09 Apr 2016
Posts: 33



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGecko wrote:
So, wort was 3.5 when I got home from work. Boiled and pitched 644 tonight. Things are shaping up nicely. Let's see if the 644 brings it home for the win.


I know this is a very old post, but wondering if anyone heard of TheGecko's results?
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