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Water salt adjustments question
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schach23




Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 6
Location: Ohio


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:47 pm    Post subject: Water salt adjustments question Reply with quote


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Guys,

Not sure what section to ask this question so here goes.

I did my first water adjustments with my setup and have a few questions. I'm gonna outline my steps first:

I used Bru n Water, inputed my home water report from Ward Labs. Picked my salt targets and pH target.

I fill my 15 gallon HLT to about the 12 gallon mark, got my strike water up to temp, transferred over to the mash tun. Then I added my salts and lactic acid. gave it a good stir and then mashed in. Now I don't have a pH meter yet so not sure how much in target my pH was. This part was fine.

I then add water back to my HLT to about the 12 gallon mark so that the entire coil is submerged and begin the mash recirculation.

Bru n water separates the mash and sparge salts and also the pH adjustment. Here is where I had some questions. Bru n water calculates so much salts and lactic acid additions for the sparge. I had my HLT filled to 12 gallons, obviously I didn't sparge with 12 gallons. I basically sparge until I have my pre-boil gravity. How do I adjust my sparge pH? Maybe I don't have to worry about that? For the salts, I just added the sparge salts to the kettle.

Some thoughts I came up with for the sparge side. Bru n water uses a sparge acidification calculation step where you input your sparge water in gallons and it tells you how much acid to add to get your target sparge pH. Can I just input my HLT volume of 12 gallons? It will probably be a lot of lactic acid, but I won't be using all of the 12 gallons. Instead thinking about it as how many ml's of lactic acid, I'll be working in a ratio of x amount of lactic acid per gallon? I think adding the salts to the kettle is fine, just don't know how to keep the sparge pH <6. Maybe I don't have to worry about that with the 3 vessel eherms setup.

Hope that wasn't confusing.

Scott
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't add any salts to the HLT. I add mash salts to the mash at the same time as the grain (done for pH). If mash pH is not low enough I add some 88% lactic acid too. Usually only required with very light beers.

After I've transferred strike water from the HLT to the MLT, I simply add some lactic acid to the HLT to take the sparge water pH down to the 5.6-5.8 range. I may not use all the water of course, but that's ok. In my case it usually only takes a couple of ml of 88% lactic to drop my ~13 gallons of sparge water down to the right pH.

Remaining salts go in the boil (this is for flavour)

P.S. I've never used Bru'n water. I use EZWaterCalculator but the ideas are likely the same. EZWater tells you how much to add to the mash, how much to add to the boil. It will also try to guess your mash pH but I don't find it's overly accurate. I use a pH meter. THis one here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/Hanna-Phep-5-pH-meter-model-HI-98128

P.P.S I've moved this to the brewing science subforum.

Good luck!

Kal

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schach23




Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 6
Location: Ohio


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks

That's pretty much how I do it.

until I get a pH meter, when I add lactic acid to my 10 gallons of sparge water (even though I may not use all 10 gallons), I'll add so many ml's of lactic acid per gallon. Bru n water tells me I need so many ml's of lactic acid per a total sparge amount, so that's basically a ratio. I'll up it for my 10 gallons. Thanks

Scott
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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott,
I'm a big fan of Bru'nwater. I find it very accurate, but you can't beat a Ph meter for on the fly adjustments.
In the "water adjustment" tab, simply change your sparge water volume to 12. This will tell you the salt additions to the sparge including lactic and won't change your estimated Ph even though you're not using all the water.
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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 132
Location: Thailand

Drinking: Way Out Wheat - Mindcircus

Working on: Zombie Dust


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it wrong to add the salts to the HLT, my opinion on this was to match the required water profile for the whole batch in the HLT then use it for the brew. That way its done and I can forget about it. Any PH differences would be adjusted in the mash by lactic acid if necessary.

I've never adjusted water yet but it makes sense to me to do it in the HLT. This seems far simpler... or am I missing something?
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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's exactly how I do it. I start with 20 gallons in the HLT and adjust my salts to that ratio. Then adjust the Ph in the mash.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use EZWaterCalculator (available free online) to tell me how much salts to add to the mash and how much to add to the boil in order to get the numbers I want.

Reasons to not add all salts to the HLT:

- Not all salts dissolve in water (most notably chalk, though it's usefulness in brewing water adjustments is questionable).
- For some beers you may not want to add the salts to the mash as it may push your pH too high or low. You add salts to the mash for pH, and then salts to the boil for flavor. If the pH is going to be (say) too low by adding into the mash because the beer's very dark (for example), you can move to adding the salts to the boil instead. If you tread all your water ahead of time you can't do that.
- While salts are generally inexpensive, there's always water left over so treating all the water instead of just exactly what you need for strike and sparge means you're using more salts.

More info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/parts-list-using?page=4

Kal

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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, as a matter of preference, Brungaurd and Delange would disagree. But there's no right or wrong way if you achieve the result you're looking for.
Gypsum dissolves easily in cold water as does calcium chloride. Frankly, I don't know why chalk is discussed as an option anymore. As for wasting salts, in a 10 gallon batch it's pennies.
I start with RO water so salts to the HLT makes the most sense for me for accuracy, plus I don't want stripped water in the mash.
IMO a good Ph meter makes all the difference.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SD Endorf wrote:
Kal, as a matter of preference, Brungaurd and Delange would disagree.

Which parts? I think we agreed for the most part (what dissolved/what doesn't the general usefulness of chalk [I think I've used it only once myself]).

Definitely want a pH meter to confirm things.

Kal

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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brungaurd's software is based on salt additions to the HLT. Delange has posted in the past his preference to do the same.
Rivetcatcher asked if this was OK. I'm just pointing out that it is, but there's several methods to skin the cat. Wink
Your reputation using salts in the boil certainly speaks for itself!
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of ways to skin the cat as you mention - at the end of the day the results can most certainly be the same. I've had good results with splitting the salts, mostly because the spreadsheet I use (EZWaterCalculator) does it that way.

Kal

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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For now I think I will just add them to the HLT as it seems a lot simpler to me. Once my brewery is up and running (that's going to take a while) and I get used to the process I may start to play around a bit. For my first few brews its all about simplicity.

My thoughts on adding to the HLT came from thinking about breweries in areas with good water profiles such as Burton etc. Surely they were achieving the results using this water profile at all stages of the process without adjustment - as this is what they had available at the time.


Thanks for the help guys

Rivet
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Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
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Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you add salts to the hlt, make sure your recirculating otherwise they just float to the bottom and half do not even mix
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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 132
Location: Thailand

Drinking: Way Out Wheat - Mindcircus

Working on: Zombie Dust


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
if you add salts to the hlt, make sure your recirculating otherwise they just float to the bottom and half do not even mix

Do most of them dissolve in boiling water? I was thinking about doing that first in a bowl to ensure they had dissolved then addto the HLT
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SD Endorf




Joined: 24 Apr 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rivetcatcher wrote:
Ozarks Mountain Brew wrote:
if you add salts to the hlt, make sure your recirculating otherwise they just float to the bottom and half do not even mix

Do most of them dissolve in boiling water? I was thinking about doing that first in a bowl to ensure they had dissolved then addto the HLT


You could pre-mix, but it's probably not necessary.
I add salts to the HLT cold at the beginning and stir with a paddle. Need to do this 2 or 3 times as the water gradually reaches mash temp. By the time I'm ready to transfer the mash water, there is nothing unmixed sitting on the bottom of the HLT.
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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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Working on: Zombie Dust


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Endorf
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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: water profile Reply with quote

Hello guys, I have brewed extracts over the years and I am interested and accumilating items to start all grain.
Right now I have a couple of partial mash kits I need to use up.
I have a Northern Brewing Fhat Tire Ale I want to use next and recently got a water profile back from Ward for my outside faucet. I also have a RO System.
the outside water came in as follows:

PH 8.5 Na 87 Ca 34 Mg 14 CaCO3 143 So4-S 25 CI 117

I was attempting to use the EZ Water Calculator but wasn't sure what the heck I was doing because when I started entering numbers following Kal's technique described things were not changing much.

Also my profile as is looks to be in Palmers Ranges except the Ratio is higher.

any pointers or hand holding on how much of what to add or not would be appreciated. Hopefully by the time I get an Electric Brewery set up and go to All Grain I will have some experience in this area and gained some insight from you all.

Thanks,
tkdjim
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: water profile Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
I have a Northern Brewing Fhat Tire Ale I want to use next and recently got a water profile back from Ward for my outside faucet. I also have a RO System.
the outside water came in as follows:

PH 8.5 Na 87 Ca 34 Mg 14 CaCO3 143 So4-S 25 CI 117

So that's your starting water?

Quote:
I was attempting to use the EZ Water Calculator but wasn't sure what the heck I was doing because when I started entering numbers following Kal's technique described things were not changing much.

What are the target numbers you're trying to achieve?
Maybe post some step by step screenshots of what you're doing exactly. Without knowing what you're doing, it's hard to guess what you may be doing differently / why it isn't working for you.

Cheers!

P.S. Not sure how much all-grain is involved in this partial mash kit but typically extract brewers do not worry about their mash pH and composition since it's all been done for them at the time of the wort creation. You may certainly still add salts for taste, but not knowing what the brewer originally did when creating the wort (extract) makes it hard to know what to do as you don't know what you're starting with so you don't know how much to add to get to where you want to be.

Kal

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tkdjim




Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kal, thanks for the reply.
I am not sure what I am attempting other than I was thinking that I need to get my water adjusted to a good starting point to make the most out of this kit. I wasn't sure my starting water profile was suitable or I should use RO ect...

Guess I was thinking even with an extract or partial mash kit water profile would affect the end product to some extent?

Actually it is Phat Tyre Amber Ale and consists of 0.5 lbs Victory malt, 0.5 lbs Briess Caramel 60, 1 lb Pilsen DME, 6 lbs Munich malt syrup and uses 1oz each of German Perle and Hersbrucker hops

I guess I was probing for some direction on if I should try to adjust the water but not sure where it should be. I was poking numbers into the EZ Water but the profile wasn't getting down to the ones you were showing in the example that i was shooting for to see what my base tap water needed for better brew. Mostly I was wanting to get some screen time with the App before I got both feet into All Grain later.

Perhaps if you could tell me what you think about my starting tap water it might be helpful for later brewing days?

thanks,
tkdjim
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
I am not sure what I am attempting other than I was thinking that I need to get my water adjusted to a good starting point to make the most out of this kit. I wasn't sure my starting water profile was suitable or I should use RO ect...

What water you should start with depends on the starting water numbers and your target numbers. If your starting water has numbers higher than your targets, you can't use your starting water as you've already got too much 'stuff' in there. See Step 2 "Starting water composition" here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment?page=4

But before you go there, you need to know what you're targeting. That's Step 1 "Choose a flavour profile" here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment?page=3

Until you have a target flavour profile in mind, you can't continue and make the decisions you're trying to make (i.e. should you use RO or tap).

I suggest reading through the article from the start and following the steps, one at a time.

Quote:
Guess I was thinking even with an extract or partial mash kit water profile would affect the end product to some extent?

Yes. Assuming you're not doing a mash at all or it's very little of the final product, you still can have salts that can go in the boil for flavour.

That said, if I was extract or partial mash brewing from kits I think I'd probably just skip trying to adjust my water. You have no idea how the wort (extract) was made so you don't know what's already in there in terms of minerals for flavour/etc. So you have no idea how to adjust even your water in the boil since you don't know what's already in there.

Quote:
Actually it is Phat Tyre Amber Ale .... I guess I was probing for some direction on if I should try to adjust the water but not sure where it should be. I was poking numbers into the EZ Water but the profile wasn't getting down to the ones you were showing in the example ...

The example in the guide is for a Blonde Ale that is a balanced beer with reasonably low mineral numbers like so:

Ca=50, Mg=10, Na=16, Cl=70, SO4=70

You mentioned that your starting tap water has the following:

Ca=34, Mg=14, Na=87, Cl=117, SO4=75 (To get SO4 from SO4-S you need to multiply by 3 - I believe their report mentions this?)

So it's normal that you can't get to the targets as in most cases your starting tap water numbers are already too high. See the section "Some of my water mineral numbers are higher than the targets!" here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment?page=4
You need to cut with RO water or start with RO water.

That said, I'm not sure what kind of beer your kit is, so I'm not sure what targets would make sense.

Quote:
Perhaps if you could tell me what you think about my starting tap water it might be helpful for later brewing days?


Compare your tap numbers here:

Ca=34, Mg=14, Na=87, Cl=117, SO4=75

To the various suggested flavour profile numbers I provide here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment?page=3

You'll note that in all cases some your numbers are too high so you'd have to cut with RO or start with RO if you want to hit my recommended targets (up to you). Your Sodium (Na) is one of the issues. It's higher than I'd like to use myself, but that's just me (lower concentration tends to produce a cleaner flavour). Same with Chloride (Cl) for most beers. FWIW, if I had this water I'd probably cut it with at least 75% RO or just start with RO to make life simpler. You can still certainly brew with your water as is. If you go all-grain you can try both ways: With the water as is once, then with RO and building up the water to other targets such as my recommendations. See which you prefer.

Good luck!

Kal

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