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Heat exchange in coil not working well

 
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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 32
Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:51 pm    Post subject: Heat exchange in coil not working well Reply with quote


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I have a 50' 1/2" coil that I bought from Stainless Brewing. I'm having problems with getting mash up to the HLT temp. It seems like I have to put the HLT temp about 5 degrees higher than what I want in order to get the MT temp up.

Does anybody else have this problem? Once the MT hits the correct temp I then drop the HLT temp down to the correct temp and everything works perfect then.

Example. Mash temp 152. I have to raise the HLT temp to 157 until MT hits 152 then I drop HLT back down to 152 and then the mash holds stead at 142 for 60-90 minutes or however long I'm mashing.


Could it be my coil is too thick and I'm not getting timely heat transfer? Has anybody else used the coils from Stainless Brewing?

Thanks for the help!
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huaco




Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1506
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got the exact same coil from StainlessBrewing. Hmm... I'm upgrading from Keggles with a 50' 1/2"OD copper HERMS coil and don't have my new kettles built yet. My old copper coil had runs a 2°F difference.
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds like your system is working just fine if you can maintain temp for the entire mash duration. there is always a lag to get the mlt up to temp after adding grain/water. are you transferring strike water to the mlt and then immediately adding grain? or filling the mlt with grain and then adding the water? this will make the recovery time longer. try transferring strike water to the mlt and recircing that until it is the same temp as the hlt, then add the grain. this is less of a 'shock' to the system than adding water/grain at the same time to a cold mlt. unless you have your grain heated up before adding to the mlt, there will always be a lag in getting the mlt up to hlt temps. this lag is shorter if you set the hlt temp higher than desired temp for a few minutes and is a very common practice.
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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 32
Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

itsnotrequired wrote:
sounds like your system is working just fine if you can maintain temp for the entire mash duration. there is always a lag to get the mlt up to temp after adding grain/water. are you transferring strike water to the mlt and then immediately adding grain? or filling the mlt with grain and then adding the water? this will make the recovery time longer. try transferring strike water to the mlt and recircing that until it is the same temp as the hlt, then add the grain. this is less of a 'shock' to the system than adding water/grain at the same time to a cold mlt. unless you have your grain heated up before adding to the mlt, there will always be a lag in getting the mlt up to hlt temps. this lag is shorter if you set the hlt temp higher than desired temp for a few minutes and is a very common practice.


Yea once I can get it up to temp it works great. The lag time I know of but going up from 152 mash temp to 168 for mash out would take 30 minutes and I still would be about 163. Seems like it shouldn't take that long still.

What I did the last time was add the water to the MT from HLT tank and let everything recirc and get up to the correct temp and then add the grain.
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huaco




Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1506
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I plan to do on my next batch: I want a quicker route to mash-out temps. I'll fill about 5 gallons in the Boil Kettle and get it to a boil as I start the ramp in the HLT to 170°F. The moment my HLT reaches temp, I'll add the appropriate volume of boiling water to the mash to rapidly step the mash temp to 168°F. This should literally knock half an hour off my brew day.
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November




Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the same coil and don't experience this problem. I set to what I want and it hits and maintains almost exactly. Have you checked the mash temp in several locations and made sure the probes in the MLT are calibrated?
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dp Brewing Company




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 664
Location: Midwest

Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have the same coil. I thought I had the same issue as you but figured out after some checking that my calibration of my mash tun RTD was off. Once I fixed that I only have to set my HLT about 1 degree high.
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jcav




Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Central Florida


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have the same coil. I use it in a keggle and it works great. I brew outside though. I also didn't buy the super insulated tubing that Kal suggests, so I loose some heat through the regular silicone tubing. Also if it's windy out I may loose some more heat. I heat my strike water up in the mash tun at the same time as the HLT is heating up and it works fine. I have to set my HLT temp 2 degrees hotter than the mash temp I need and if it's very windy I have to set it 4 degrees higher. That's just how it is with my system, but it works awesome once it heats up and holds the temp perfectly. Kal and others seem to get the HLT and MLT temps to match but not everyone reports they get the same results. Each system will vary a little especially if you didn't use the same exact kettles and tubing that Kal uses. Hope this helps.....

John

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Shmeffrey




Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 6
Location: Barrie, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 50' x 1/2" dia. stainless herms coil and I found I need to have the HLT 6-8 degrees higher than the MT. It will depend on how much heat the MT and hoses lose. The makeup air into my brewery has been very cold lately so it makes sense for my MT to loose a higher amount of heat. I expect it will change in the summer.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shmeffrey wrote:
I have a 50' x 1/2" dia. stainless herms coil and I found I need to have the HLT 6-8 degrees higher than the MT. It will depend on how much heat the MT and hoses lose. The makeup air into my brewery has been very cold lately so it makes sense for my MT to loose a higher amount of heat. I expect it will change in the summer.

Just for comparison sake, I don't have to set the HLT any higher (both my HLT and MLT are calibrated using a NIST certified ThermaPen at mash temp) and my make-up air's just as cold (Barrie and Ottawa are probably pretty similar).

If you have to set it that much higher, I'd look in other spots for issues. Could be poor flow due to too fine a grind or similar, and heat is being lost. I run my pumps 100% open.

Kal

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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Shmeffrey wrote:
I have a 50' x 1/2" dia. stainless herms coil and I found I need to have the HLT 6-8 degrees higher than the MT. It will depend on how much heat the MT and hoses lose. The makeup air into my brewery has been very cold lately so it makes sense for my MT to loose a higher amount of heat. I expect it will change in the summer.

Just for comparison sake, I don't have to set the HLT any higher (both my HLT and MLT are calibrated using a NIST certified ThermaPen at mash temp) and my make-up air's just as cold (Barrie and Ottawa are probably pretty similar).

If you have to set it that much higher, I'd look in other spots for issues. Could be poor flow due to too fine a grind or similar, and heat is being lost. I run my pumps 100% open.

Kal


Kal, you run the wort flow wide open through the HERMS coil? I've been throttling it back, but if I don't need to, I guess I'll try it wide open. Might actually work better since I'm doing 15-20 gallon batches.

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed I was having some trouble hitting the right temps too on my first couple batches. I discovered my problems included the HLT coil was not fully submerged in HLT water, and my recirculation flow was too slow. Now I always fill my HLT to 20 gallons, and keep the mash valve open at least 3/4.

You're going to lose some heat in the tubing too, so shorter lengths are preferable. Like some other guys, I also set my HLT at 174, and as the mash approaches 165 I dial the HLT down to 169-170 and take the lid off it until it hits that temp. They quite reliably both stabilize at 168-169. I find my HLT is a degree or two warmer than my mash tun so I set it accordingly.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wscottcross wrote:
Kal, you run the wort flow wide open through the HERMS coil? I've been throttling it back, but if I don't need to, I guess I'll try it wide open. Might actually work better since I'm doing 15-20 gallon batches.


Yes - wide open. See my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP for more hints/tips like this: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

My suggestions are to mill loose (0.045 - 0.050" mill gap) and run the pumps as fast as you can (less heat can escape that way before it's reheated).

Kal

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Shmeffrey




Joined: 18 Feb 2015
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Location: Barrie, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't have my pump wide open so that should be the issue. I have already calibrated the temperature probes with the PID.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shmeffrey wrote:
I have already calibrated the temperature probes with the PID.

How?

Kal

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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wscottcross wrote:


Kal, you run the wort flow wide open through the HERMS coil? I've been throttling it back, but if I don't need to, I guess I'll try it wide open. Might actually work better since I'm doing 15-20 gallon batches.


50' might be a little short for a 20 gallon batch
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's about flow rate. Measure the temp at the HERMS coil output. It should be equal to or very close to the HLT temp. If it is, longer won't help. If it isn't, you need longer to match the flow rate. Should be fine with 20 gallon batches.

Kal

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Shmeffrey




Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 6
Location: Barrie, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Shmeffrey wrote:
I have already calibrated the temperature probes with the PID.

How?

Kal


I boiled in the HLT and used a taylor digital thermometer.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good. If you want to get even more accurate, calibrate at mash temp (the temp that matters). Thermometers are not always linear and the PIDs do not have 2-point offset adjustment.

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrodGasko wrote:
Hi..i am a new user here.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote:
try transferring strike water to the mlt and recircing that until it is the same temp as the hlt, then add the grain. this is less of a 'shock' to the system than adding water/grain at the same time to a cold mlt.

Correct - that's what I recommend in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP instructions:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Some people will even overshoot slightly. Up to you.

Cheers,

Kal

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