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Tripping Breaker
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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:06 am    Post subject: Tripping Breaker Reply with quote


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I think this is the correct spot for this.

So I just got done with my panel build (30amp). As soon as i turn on the power it pops my breaker. I've looked at the breaker that is correct, I've checked the outlet (voltage correct), power cable meters correctly as well. I've done a continuity meter test from the contactor side that is connected to the main power receptacle. I get tone from power in (contactor) to the key switch power off, then nothing past that. When i turn the key on i get it through my interlock circuit. If i turn the element selector to any element the continuity stops at the interlock like it should. I've followed the circuits and i'm at a lose for why this trips, i'm guessing its a hot side issue, but this is all over my pay scale. Any help would be great, I'm sure its simple but i am over looking this.
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kal
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Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi and welcome to the forum!

Do you have anyone else that can double check for you? Reason I ask is that you mentioned everything seems correct, but something has to be off give the issue you're having so there is most likely something that is being overlooked, but without seeing it in person it's very difficult to guess what may be wrong. The wiring issues could be in any number of places.

Sometimes posting a bunch of pictures can help too.

Cheers!

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind that in addition to wiring issues it could also be the use of incorrect parts (I double checked and based on your email address you did not assemble one of our control panel kits).

Kal

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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíll post some pictures tonight. I ordered parts from the links on your website. But it wonít hurt to have pictures and let the experts take a look.
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dp Brewing Company



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar issue with a friends build. His breaker would pop anytime he turned on the Boil kettle element. Turned out a wire was loose at the connection point of the element itself. So the breaker was doing its job after all! Don't know if that is your issue but would be an easy one to check.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10660
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pictures will definitely help!

For what itís worth, purchasing through the links here to external sites doesnít guarantee you purchased (or were sent) the right parts for our use. If purchasing from elsewhere quite often the link is simply a search to Amazon, EBay, and so forth since I canít always link to a specific perment seller as they come and go. Dozens of results may be shown, the first in the list isnít necessarily correct, and not all will be a part that works for our use.

Kal

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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Pictures will definitely help!

For what itís worth, purchasing through the links here to external sites doesnít guarantee you purchased (or were sent) the right parts for our use. If purchasing from elsewhere quite often the link is simply a search to Amazon, EBay, and so forth since I canít always link to a specific perment seller as they come and go. Dozens of results may be shown, the first in the list isnít necessarily correct, and not all will be a part that works for our use.

Kal



Good to know, Iíll double check all my parts as well, but I did try to make sure the descriptions matched what was recommended on the website. Thanks.
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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp Brewing Company wrote:
I had a similar issue with a friends build. His breaker would pop anytime he turned on the Boil kettle element. Turned out a wire was loose at the connection point of the element itself. So the breaker was doing its job after all! Don't know if that is your issue but would be an easy one to check.


Thanks for the advice, Iíll take a look at all the connections.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10660
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biglakehomebrewer wrote:
Good to know, Iíll double check all my parts as well, but I did try to make sure the descriptions matched what was recommended on the website. Thanks.

You should be good then! Just wanted to make sure you were aware. Good luck!

Kal

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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my friend is looking at my panel issues, his background is electrical control panel builds. He actually design and built his own electric home brew panel from scratch. Heís broke it down and determined that the transformers and power supply are working properly. When he puts power to the amp and volt meter they turn on, but when the volts and amps cable is applied they trip. So basically the meters power up, but when asked to do their jobs it trips the breakers. So Iíll be ordering new a new amp and volt meter.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10660
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biglakehomebrewer wrote:
So my friend is looking at my panel issues, his background is electrical control panel builds. He actually design and built his own electric home brew panel from scratch. Heís broke it down and determined that the transformers and power supply are working properly. When he puts power to the amp and volt meter they turn on, but when the volts and amps cable is applied they trip.

The breaker in your electrical breaker panel trips if the signal wires on the voltmeter and ampmeter are connected but the meters are not damaged? And you can do this repeatedly?

That seems very unlikely. If wired incorrectly the two meters would either not work (open circuit) or be damaged permanently (short circuit causing parts to fry since it usually puts 240V AC where it isn't expected). When fried they would no longer come on the next time you tried to use them.

The reason for this is that if you wire a meter incorrectly it can create a short that draws more current than expected, and given the small low current parts in the meters the parts will fry long before you pull more than the 30A required to trip your electrical panel breaker. Once fried the meters will no longer work. It's not something you can repeat.

With the meters disconnected, does the panel work correctly? It should as the meters are not required to use the panel. Make sure that everything else works right before ordering replacement meters. I would expect the problem to be elsewhere if you're tripping your wall breaker. It wouldn't be in the low current circuitry of the meters.

Good luck!

Kal

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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Biglakehomebrewer wrote:
So my friend is looking at my panel issues, his background is electrical control panel builds. He actually design and built his own electric home brew panel from scratch. Heís broke it down and determined that the transformers and power supply are working properly. When he puts power to the amp and volt meter they turn on, but when the volts and amps cable is applied they trip.

The breaker in your electrical breaker panel trips if the signal wires on the voltmeter and ampmeter are connected but the meters are not damaged? And you can do this repeatedly?

That seems very unlikely. If wired incorrectly the two meters would either not work (open circuit) or be damaged permanently (short circuit causing parts to fry since it usually puts 240V AC where it isn't expected). When fried they would no longer come on the next time you tried to use them.

The reason for this is that if you wire a meter incorrectly it can create a short that draws more current than expected, and given the small low current parts in the meters the parts will fry long before you pull more than the 30A required to trip your electrical panel breaker. Once fried the meters will no longer work. It's not something you can repeat.

With the meters disconnected, does the panel work correctly? It should as the meters are not required to use the panel. Make sure that everything else works right before ordering replacement meters. I would expect the problem to be elsewhere if you're tripping your wall breaker. It wouldn't be in the low current circuitry of the meters.

Good luck!

Kal


So all this work is being done at my friends place. So the panel does work with the volt and amp meter disconnected. He was actually going to put some load on the panel with his kettles and pumps. But I do believe this was repeatable with the amp and volt meter. He signed up as a member on this this forum not sure if his username was approved or not yet.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10660
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let us know how it goes! His account should already be approved (not sure what name he is using). Latest members are here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/memberlist.php

Kal

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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a picture of my panel. This is with a element running and both pumps. Everything works but the amp/volt meter. Looks like Iíll be needing to order a new set of meters. So my friend is just as confused as everyone else, the only way he can make the panel work is disconnecting the amp and volt meter signal wire. [/img]


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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10660
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately a picture from the outside doesn't offer any more information as to why you're having an issue.

Got any closeup pictures of the inside? Especially around the transformers/power supplies, and meters?

KAl

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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately I donít, Iíll have the panel in my possession tomorrow evening again Iíll snap some photos and post Sunday.
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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I got some pictures today, I hope they help. Not the easiest thing in the world to try and get every angle. Kal, I did post a video on my instagram page (adamskjefstad). So that video was of the volt and amp meter powered up but the signal cables not connected. When I then wired them per the diagram the house breaker then trips.


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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10660
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing really stands out from the photos I'm afraid. Can't really follow the wires to see how things are hooked up either. No pictures of the power supplies or transformers so not sure if there may be issues there.

Referring to your video: https://www.instagram.com/p/BlUKjRuDt_h/
I noticed that you're having issues with the amp meter as it's displaying "1". I don't think that's normal. (If I'm not mistaken it should display all zeros like the voltmeter when nothing's connected on the signal side - I'm actually not sure of this and don't have a panel in front of me to confirm at the moment - maybe someone else can check).

What voltage are you feeding into the amp meter to power it?
I would focus on getting the amp meter working right then work on the voltmeter side.

What timer are you using? It's not the one from the instructions so the wiring would be different. Keep that in mind. In your video the timer is also displaying "0003". It's not counting down or displaying what appears to be some sort of time. So there may be issues there you want to look into as well. Probably not related but you never know....

Good luck!

Kal

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Biglakehomebrewer



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Big Lake, mn


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, Iíll meter out the amp meter tonight and check on those numbers. As for the timer itís the Auberins ALS-51, I also didnít have the proper NO block wired during that video.
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pbkfl22



Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So when I tested this panel, I first went through and metered everything out and made sure there were no wiring mistakes. After getting all of that done I disconnected all the circuits and slowly one by one connected them until I found what was tripping the breaker. It was tripping every time I connected the circuit for the amp and volt meter. So i broke it down even more, I disconnected the signal wires and the meters turned on (not reading anything) and nothing tripped. Once I attached the signal wires, didn't matter if it was the volt meter or the amp meter it would instantly trip. I even rewired the signal wires with my own wire and it still tripped every time. I even ran the panel with the signal wires disconnected and used my DMM to read the voltage and the amperage where the signal wires were connected and the breaker did not trip. With the meters powered up but not reading anything I hooked the panel up to my system and I was able to run both pumps and either element with no issues. So the only thing I have concluded from my extensive testing is that there is something wrong with the meters. When the new meters come in we will find out for sure if it is solely the meter's that are the problem. This one really had me stumped as to why this was the only way to trip the panel and also the only way to get the panel to work. The new volt meter will be able to be wired with 240, and the new amp meter can be wired with 120 and use a current transformer. This will get rid of the transformers, power supplies and the shunt. As for the timer, it is an Auberins and it is wired up correctly.

Cheers
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