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First Brew, electric brewery with PLC

 
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sandovalch




Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 41
Location: Guatemala

Working on: Irish Red Ale, American Amber Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:34 pm    Post subject: First Brew, electric brewery with PLC Reply with quote


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Hi there I just want to share some pictures, thoughts and ask some general questions.

First of, apart from the challenge to assemble the whole brewery, it was also a bit tricky to program the Unitronics PLC. Having experience with Simatic S7, Unitronics is ladder programming, I was not used to.

During the brew process I noticed I had some steps and changes which have to be implemented before the next brew.

I have some questions.

1. I am using a reverse osmosis water treatment unit, should I add minerals and salts during mash in, if yes, which ones?
2. Is it normal to see so much foam during the mash? Am I doing something different?
3. During the boil, I had no boil over or an attempt of it, is this also normal?
4. I chilled to 30ēC (about 60 degress F) is this OK, or to high?
5. My gravity after brew, chilled was 1.042, is it too low? If yes, what could be the cause?

and one of the more important questions:
4. I am fermenting in a Speigel 60L, and pitched in the yeast. Our normal temp here is 80F during the day and 66F during the night. I made the recipe the electric brewery uses for first batch. Since I am in Guatemala, I did not notice there was missing the stopper on top of the Speigel unit (it is my first brew and all of the equipment is new) and was wondering why no bubbles were coming out. There is foam on top of the wort. 2 days into the fermentations process.
My questions about this are:
1. I closed the stopper with some gasket, two days later, is there are risk of contamination because I left the fermenter unsealed during 2 days?
2. I checked the gravity now, 36 hours later is at 1.022. Is the fermentation process normal?

In advance I appreciate your thoughts.

By the way... if someone has interest in the PLC implementation of your brewery, I offer a copy of my programm for free! Just share your upgrades later on with me.



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BK after boil
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BK during boil
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BK at the beginning of boil
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MLT after sparge
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Filling of the MLT. Grains have been added.
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HTL full of water before heating
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HTL view
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: First Brew, electric brewery with PLC Reply with quote

sandovalch wrote:
1. I am using a reverse osmosis water treatment unit, should I add minerals and salts during mash in, if yes, which ones?

RO water has absolutely nothing in it and won't make good beer (other than possibly a classic czech pils). You need to add salts based on what you're trying to achieve in terms of taste and for proper mash pH. See my recipes here for my salt targets I used based on various styles: www.theelectricbrewery.com/recipes
Feel free to experiment of course.
I use the free EZWaterCalculator (available online) to calculate how much of what salt/minerals to add.
Every beer is different. There's no right or wrong answer.

Quote:
2. Is it normal to see so much foam during the mash? Am I doing something different?

I haven't seen it myself. It may be because you're using pure RO water.

Quote:
3. During the boil, I had no boil over or an attempt of it, is this also normal?

It should foam up, and require you to stir. It could be because of the RO water. It could be because your heating element is underpowered (?)

Quote:
4. I chilled to 30ēC (about 60 degress F) is this OK, or to high?

30C is not 60F. 30C is 86F.

While it depends on the yeast you use (they all like different temps), 86F is most certainly too high. See my recipes for some example temps, but it's extremely yeast dependent.

Quote:
5. My gravity after brew, chilled was 1.042, is it too low? If yes, what could be the cause?

We can't know if that was too low as you didn't tell us what your target was. What was your calculated mash efficiency?
IF your efficiency is low, there are dozens of reasons why that may be the case: Sparging too fast, not using enough grain, milling too fine / not milling fine enough, poor recirculation during mashing, poor rinsing during sparging due to channeling or side wall shunting, poor mash pH, not boiling vigorously enough (leaving more water in the kettle than you expected), the list goes on.

[quote[4. I am fermenting in a Speigel 60L, and pitched in the yeast. Our normal temp here is 80F during the day and 66F during the night.[/quote]
What yeast? 80F is likely way too hot. Having a wide swing between day and night is also very bad and will likely make the yeast drop out. You need steady temps, and correct temps for the yeast you're using.

Quote:
1. I closed the stopper with some gasket, two days later, is there are risk of contamination because I left the fermenter unsealed during 2 days?

Yes. Will it happen? No way to know.

Quote:
2. I checked the gravity now, 36 hours later is at 1.022. Is the fermentation process normal?

What recipe? What yeast? It's certainly progressing.

Kal

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NervousDad




Joined: 21 Jun 2015
Posts: 24



PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had foam like that due to a over tightened hose clamp. It created a venturi effect and it foamed up like crazy. I have that same unitronics controller but I'm afraid to wipe the current program that is on it (Sabco) Smile
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sandovalch




Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 41
Location: Guatemala

Working on: Irish Red Ale, American Amber Ale


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, Thanks for your feedback.

I see now why RO was not such a good choice. A classic czech pils it will turn out to be then! Should have asked beforehand...

I am an electronics engineer and don´t know much about chemistry. I worked for years at our main brewery here in Guatemala, programming the process at the Sudhaus, fermentation tanks, Filterkeller.... An avid beer drinker myself to the point where I got a fatty liver (my boss was the brewmaster at the brewery and beer was available all the time).

Now, years later, that I am self employed and have the resources, thought it would be a good idea to build one in small scale for myself. When I saw The ElectricBrewery I thought it would be a good idea to build it, assuming some changes by myself.

As for the answers above:

1. I will have to use minerals ans salts next time. I do not want to throw my batch away, even it will be a classic czech pils. Will have to wait how it turns out.

3. I do not think the heating element is underpowered. All of my relays, cabling are in norm.

4. Do you think it would be better to use a different yeast other than the Fermentis Safale US-05 dry yeast, given that my temperature here is higher?

Or should I consider setting up a room where the temperature is the same all day?

The recipe I used is:
Blonde Ale

Batch Size: 12.0 gallons (post-boil at 68F)
Efficiency: 95% (how well our system converts grain starches to sugars according to our software)
Attenuation: 80% (percentage of sugar converted to alcohol by our yeast)
Original Gravity: 1.048 (before fermentation)
Final Gravity: 1.010 (after fermentation)
Color: 3.07 SRM (very light)
Alcohol: 5.08% ABV
Bitterness: 19.0 IBU (not very bitter)


For all the remaining questions it is the same recipe.


NervousDad, back-up the original programm, wipe it and load a programm for controlling your brewery...! Just my tought
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sandovalch wrote:
I am an electronics engineer and don´t know much about chemistry.

Same here (electrical engineer actually, but same idea). The good news is that you don't need to understand chemistry. I hated chem in university. Wink

Quote:
3. I do not think the heating element is underpowered. All of my relays, cabling are in norm.

What wattage is it? What batch size are you making?

Quote:
4. Do you think it would be better to use a different yeast other than the Fermentis Safale US-05 dry yeast, given that my temperature here is higher?

It really depends what you are making. Choose the yeast to match what you are making. You mentioned you are making a Blonde Ale. US-05 is a good choice but 86F is way too hot. It'll throw all sorts of off-flavours, fusel alcohols, and other nasty things.

Quote:
Or should I consider setting up a room where the temperature is the same all day?

To make good beer you really need to control fermentation temperature. See the temperatures I recommend per recipe. Every yeast is different.


Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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sandovalch




Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 41
Location: Guatemala

Working on: Irish Red Ale, American Amber Ale


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, the batch size is 12 gallons post boil and the heating element is 5500W, yours actually, the new all stainless steel.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5500W in 12 gallons is most certainly enough. Now, that's assuming that your powering the heating element with 220-240V. If powered by 120V only then the power output is only 25% of 5500W.

From a previous comment you made:

sandovalch wrote:
I see now why RO was not such a good choice. A classic czech pils it will turn out to be then! Should have asked beforehand...

Not the be the bearer of bad news, but the resultant beer will not be anything like a czech pils given that the ingredients are wrong (wrong malt, wrong hops). A czech pils also needs a good pils lager yeast and needs to be fermented cold (50-52F) for the classic clean taste. This yeast here is a good choice: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/Wyeast-2001-Urquell-Lager-Yeast

Here's a pils recipe that I have online here so that you can see the differences: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26537

Note that while the minerals/salts are low, they're not at zero like RO water. There's just enough ions to acidify the mash while keeping the water soft.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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View user's photo album (21 photos)
sandovalch




Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 41
Location: Guatemala

Working on: Irish Red Ale, American Amber Ale


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, one question when the recipe asks for example:

"Water treated with brewing salts to: Ca=21, Mg=5, Na=18, Cl=16, S04=21"

is this the grams of each element you have to add to the batch? Or is it the final value of the water?
If it is the final value, how do you achieve it?

Thanks.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the ppm target you want to achieve. Use EZWaterCalculator to figure out how what you need to add based on your existing water and the recipe. It's here: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

You may use other calculators too, but it's the one I'm familiar with and I find it the easiest to use. I've used a dozen others in the past and they're all too confusing for me. Wink

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Kazumichan




Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 177
Location: Cincinnati Ohio area

Working on: Belgium golden, Dubbel, and imperial red


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any instructions on how to use ezwatercalculator, or did I just miss them somewhere on their page?
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen any specific instructions. You enter your starting water profile, then enter the grain, and then play with the various amounts to get the target you want (the targets I provide).

If you need more help, take a look at these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1n7-RjEJEM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKT6EE7ong0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn0GwU7TqNE

EDIT: Or just see my step by step water adjustment guide. It's here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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sandovalch




Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 41
Location: Guatemala

Working on: Irish Red Ale, American Amber Ale


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like DAY AND NIGHT.
In my second brew I used the salts and minerals suggested, the brew is TOTALLY different. Sweet wort with a strong Hops taste!
Just now it is fermenting.
I split the wort in 5 gallons and are fermenting the second one as a pilsener.
Let´s see how it turns out...

I have refurbished an old fridge, where I ferment at 11 deg C.

A keezer is also being updated with external temperature control. This is where my stock will be placed.
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PoetryJoe




Joined: 26 Jun 2015
Posts: 6



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NervousDad wrote:
I've had foam like that due to a over tightened hose clamp. It created a venturi effect and it foamed up like crazy. I have that same unitronics controller but I'm afraid to wipe the current program that is on it (Sabco) Smile


This forum is awesome! I'm on my second brew and I was having foam problems until I read this post. Thank you!

Joe
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mb2658




Joined: 22 Nov 2017
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Re: First Brew, electric brewery with PLC Reply with quote

sandovalch wrote:
Hi there I just want to share some pictures, thoughts and ask some general questions.

First of, apart from the challenge to assemble the whole brewery, it was also a bit tricky to program the Unitronics PLC. Having experience with Simatic S7, Unitronics is ladder programming, I was not used to.

During the brew process I noticed I had some steps and changes which have to be implemented before the next brew.

I have some questions.

1. I am using a reverse osmosis water treatment unit, should I add minerals and salts during mash in, if yes, which ones?
2. Is it normal to see so much foam during the mash? Am I doing something different?
3. During the boil, I had no boil over or an attempt of it, is this also normal?
4. I chilled to 30ēC (about 60 degress F) is this OK, or to high?
5. My gravity after brew, chilled was 1.042, is it too low? If yes, what could be the cause?

and one of the more important questions:
4. I am fermenting in a Speigel 60L, and pitched in the yeast. Our normal temp here is 80F during the day and 66F during the night. I made the recipe the electric brewery uses for first batch. Since I am in Guatemala, I did not notice there was missing the stopper on top of the Speigel unit (it is my first brew and all of the equipment is new) and was wondering why no bubbles were coming out. There is foam on top of the wort. 2 days into the fermentations process.
My questions about this are:
1. I closed the stopper with some gasket, two days later, is there are risk of contamination because I left the fermenter unsealed during 2 days?
2. I checked the gravity now, 36 hours later is at 1.022. Is the fermentation process normal?

In advance I appreciate your thoughts.

By the way... if someone has interest in the PLC implementation of your brewery, I offer a copy of my programm for free! Just share your upgrades later on with me.


I'd be very interested to see your Visilogic code for your brewery. I am working on building the logic for mine and am new to ladder logic. PM sent.
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sandovalch




Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 41
Location: Guatemala

Working on: Irish Red Ale, American Amber Ale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there.

I am willing to share the code, send me your mail and I hope it can be sent that way.

Just a note, I did not implement a PID for the temp control, since it would be switching on and off constantly. Maybe you can find a better solution for it and let me know how you did it.
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Lesterclan




Joined: 02 May 2018
Posts: 1
Location: Shelton, Wa


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sandovalch wrote:
Hi there.

I am willing to share the code, send me your mail and I hope it can be sent that way.

Just a note, I did not implement a PID for the temp control, since it would be switching on and off constantly. Maybe you can find a better solution for it and let me know how you did it.


Been lurking in the shadows for a bit here, finally registered last night. I'm currently building a brewery controlled by PLC for my capstone project in school. I'm trying to get an efficient ladder logic figured out for it. I'll PM you with my email if you're still sharing what you have.

As for a solution to the PID issue, I'm planning on using SSR's for controlling my elements. To me it will be a better setup. Well, in theory so far anyway.
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