Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ


European 3-phase setup
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Building Your Brewery
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AlfA01




Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
kal wrote:
I'm not familiar with Danish wiring, but in North America we have 4 wires: 2 HOTs (out of phase from each other), 1 NEUTRAL, and 1 GROUND. Even though there are two HOTs, we don't call this "2-phase" electric power. Doing so would be incorrect and would only confuse someone trying to understand what's been done. That's really all I was trying to point out - that the number of groups or wires may not actually be phases.

You may indeed actually have 3-phase wiring in your location - I really don't know.

Kal


I think here is the issue being discussed....the amount of wires is not the question....its the phases. In North America in order to get 220V power you must have two 110V wires and a neutral...this doesn't constitute 3-phase. Over here we automatically have 220/240V in a three wire format. This runs all electrical systems typical to the household, with the exception of electric heating systems (in some cases), elevators for apartments stove/oven and electric water heaters (in some cases). Concrete mixers, well pumps, welders, refrigerators and ice makers are other common items that run 3-phase.

With that being said, even the typical apartment (in the EU) building will be wired for 3-phase in one way or another, especially if the building has an elevator.

I'm from the US so this has been a period of adaptation and learning when it comes to dealing with the electrical systems...of course all the basics apply, but what you may be used to definitely does not!

Cheers,
Dan
Back to top
tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlfA01 wrote:
kal wrote:
I'm not familiar with Danish wiring, but in North America we have 4 wires: 2 HOTs (out of phase from each other), 1 NEUTRAL, and 1 GROUND. Even though there are two HOTs, we don't call this "2-phase" electric power. Doing so would be incorrect and would only confuse someone trying to understand what's been done. That's really all I was trying to point out - that the number of groups or wires may not actually be phases.

You may indeed actually have 3-phase wiring in your location - I really don't know.

Kal


I think here is the issue being discussed....the amount of wires is not the question....its the phases. In North America in order to get 220V power you must have two 110V wires and a neutral...this doesn't constitute 3-phase. Over here we automatically have 220/240V in a three wire format. This runs all electrical systems typical to the household, with the exception of electric heating systems (in some cases), elevators for apartments stove/oven and electric water heaters (in some cases). Concrete mixers, well pumps, welders, refrigerators and ice makers are other common items that run 3-phase.

With that being said, even the typical apartment (in the EU) building will be wired for 3-phase in one way or another, especially if the building has an elevator.

I'm from the US so this has been a period of adaptation and learning when it comes to dealing with the electrical systems...of course all the basics apply, but what you may be used to definitely does not!

Cheers,
Dan


Hi Kal & Dan.

Dan you put it into words in a way I could't. This leaves me with two questions.

1. Just out of curiosity how much power are you guys able to get out of the 2 HOT's in a North American house?

2. What do I need to do in order get my panel to work here in Europe ie. do I need to adapt to three phases and buy 3 phase elements or is there anything else I can do? I would prefer sticking as much as i can with Kal's geniously designed setup.

Kind regards
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tae wrote:
1. Just out of curiosity how much power are you guys able to get out of the 2 HOT's in a North American house?

Depends on the circuit.

If you have a 50A circuit with 2 HOT lines, you have 240V differential.

Power = Voltage x Current = 240 x 50 = 12000 watts max

Quote:
2. What do I need to do in order get my panel to work here in Europe ie.


If you want to built a single phase system for for countries that only have one "HOT" line running at 220-250V, see here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25393

If you want to do a 3-phase, I don't have specific instructions for that. Sorry! It basically involves rewiring everything for 3-phase and using 3-phase heating elements (Basically 3 heating elements in one).

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
shmootsie




Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am at my summer cottage and got my net connection working this morning. The connection speed is bad. I will be next week back at work again. I will draw a basic diagram for you guys on how 3-phase can be done so you get the hang of it. Basically the control side is the same as in the single phase build only the heating elements are going to be 3-phase. This means you need 3-phase solid state relays and the elements needs to be 3-phase like Kal said.


Shmootsie
Back to top
shmootsie




Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing. All houses in Europe are 3-phase. After 1948 all electrical connections made from the grid to the house are done as 3-phase.


Shmootsie
Back to top
tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shmootsie wrote:
I am at my summer cottage and got my net connection working this morning. The connection speed is bad. I will be next week back at work again. I will draw a basic diagram for you guys on how 3-phase can be done so you get the hang of it. Basically the control side is the same as in the single phase build only the heating elements are going to be 3-phase. This means you need 3-phase solid state relays and the elements needs to be 3-phase like Kal said.


Shmootsie


Sounds awesome. I will be looking forward to it Smile

Thank you in advance Very Happy
Back to top
tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shmootsie wrote:
One more thing. All houses in Europe are 3-phase. After 1948 all electrical connections made from the grid to the house are done as 3-phase.


Shmootsie


That's what I was trying to bring up earlier? This leaves a fundamental problem with the 50A panel (in Denmark), because each phase in a normal house is limited to 16A, so a 3 phase setup is the only solution if you wanna build a panel similar to the 50A panel (or at least utilize the 11-12000W.

Kind regards
Karsten
Back to top
Robi




Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Dudelange, Luxembourg


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

I am at the planning stage for building a 30A electric brewery on 220-240V here in Luxembourg, Europe. I spoke to my electrician, and he won't add a 32A output to my electrical panel, and every output (except for the kitchen) is 16A.

But I have 2 3-phase outlets in my garage, which was a former metal workshop, and which is just below the brew room. I'll wait for shmootsie, to see how you did it with your 3-phase setup. Thanks in advance!

_________________
Mat beschte Gréiss,

Robi
Birenger Beier Brudderschaft
Dudelange, Luxembourg
Back to top
shmootsie




Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23



PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have attached a picture where you have an example.

Basically you will build the control side as 1-phase and the only thing you need to connect as 3-phase are the elements. I hope this example helps. Also if you want to be certain ask a local electrician to help you out so it will be built by the standards in your country.

Shmootsie



3-phase example.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  3-phase example.pdf
 Filesize:  131.65 KB
 Downloaded:  812 Time(s)

Back to top
tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shmootsie wrote:
I have attached a picture where you have an example.

Basically you will build the control side as 1-phase and the only thing you need to connect as 3-phase are the elements. I hope this example helps. Also if you want to be certain ask a local electrician to help you out so it will be built by the standards in your country.

Shmootsie


Hi again and thank you!

I do not see how I can wire the control side as 1-phase. How do I get my Volt and Amp meters so show correct With 3 phases ? I can only connect 1 phase to the shunt?

Also I assume I would need to replace power in relays, SSR's and elements?

Cheers
Back to top
shmootsie




Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23



PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several changes you need to make. You need to forget the volt and amp meter cause getting that to show correct when using 3-phase is not gonna work or you need to get ones suited for 3-phase. I skipped using the volt and amp meter in my own build. I suggest you ask help from a local electrician to get you sorted with building 3-phase. This way you can be certain that connections are right and no damage is done.
Back to top
barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted the following in the "original" thread today - maybe it will help:


You do not have to make a complete redesign to use 3-phase. The main changes are 3-phase contactors instead of relays, 3-phase SSR or one SSR for each phase and other receptacles with three hots, one neutral and one ground.

The control functions, for example the coils in the the contactors still use 220-240V. The two extra phases may only be used to "fire" the 3-phase elements.

An 3-phase element is actually three elements in one. You can wire these elements in two ways - "wye"-configuration or "delta".

With "wye" each of the three parts in the element runs on 230V. Here you use the neutral. Lets say for example this is an element that takes 10A for each part. You will get 6 900 W (230*10*3).

With "delta" the same element is wired without using neutral and it becomes one element that runs on 400V and takes 52A.
You will get 20 800W with the same element. The mathematics here is that you multiply the voltage and also the amps with the square root of 3. That is the effect you will get when you put the three different phases together.

This also means that an 3-phase element that takes 10A in each part is a little bit too much when running on 400V (17A/phase) when only 16A/phase is available.

One disavantage with 400V is that also the watt-density will be three times higher. This is probably not a problem when only heating water.

One advantage with 3-phase is that you do not need very "fat" wires for higher effect. With 400V and 52A you only need wires for 17A.

You can use the red CEE receptacles with 5 pins. Besides these for 16A/phase there are also 32A and 63A ones. They look nearly the same but differs a bit in size. The blue CEE ones with 3 pins are single-phase 220-240V.
Back to top
barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shmootsie wrote:
One more thing. All houses in Europe are 3-phase. After 1948 all electrical connections made from the grid to the house are done as 3-phase.


Partially true - the houses maybe - but not in my apartment yet but I will have it next year. I have 230V, a 25A outlet for the stove in the kitchen and the rest is only 10A. I use the 25A outlet for brewing.

And Norway still have an old system besides the 3-phase.
Back to top
chastuck




Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 193
Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK

Drinking: Bitter

Working on: IPA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
shmootsie wrote:
One more thing. All houses in Europe are 3-phase. After 1948 all electrical connections made from the grid to the house are done as 3-phase.


Partially true - the houses maybe - but not in my apartment yet but I will have it next year. I have 230V, a 25A outlet for the stove in the kitchen and the rest is only 10A. I use the 25A outlet for brewing.

And Norway still have an old system besides the 3-phase.

The connection to houses in the UK is not 3-phase either. The UK is still part of Europe at the moment.
Back to top
View user's photo album (1 photos)
shmootsie




Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23



PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chastuck wrote:
The connection to houses in the UK is not 3-phase either. The UK is still part of Europe at the moment.


To clear this up. The connection from the grid to the house is 3-phase, same goes for apartment buildings. From that point it is a matter of the connection you have paid for. You can have 1-phase or 3-phase. Was not my intention to be rude. I am willing to help with this matter it is just not the easiest task to explain on a forum about 3-phase connections. Thanks Barney to clear things up better than me about the 3-phase relays. You explain what i was trying to show in the picture.

Shmootsie
Back to top
barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About AlfA01:s setup:

I do not think he is actually bulding a complete 3-phase setup. He i only using the possibility to use three different phases to get more power to his three singlephase elements.

3-phase power is coming in via the red 5-pin inlet. Via the 3-phase relay it is then distributed via three separate relays, one for each phase to blue 3-pole, single phase outlets.

But - the common blue 3-pins/poles are 16A. The red 5-pins/poles comes in 16A,32A or 63A/phase.

He will have "3-phase/50A" - is it 50A for each phase?

His elements needs 20-25A each.

His box seems to have three PID:s and there will probably be three SSR:s too.

Am I right AlfA01?
Back to top
AlfA01




Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
About AlfA01:s setup:

I do not think he is actually bulding a complete 3-phase setup. He i only using the possibility to use three different phases to get more power to his three singlephase elements.

3-phase power is coming in via the red 5-pin inlet. Via the 3-phase relay it is then distributed via three separate relays, one for each phase to blue 3-pole, single phase outlets.

But - the common blue 3-pins/poles are 16A. The red 5-pins/poles comes in 16A,32A or 63A/phase.

He will have "3-phase/50A" - is it 50A for each phase?

His elements needs 20-25A each.

His box seems to have three PID:s and there will probably be three SSR:s too.

Am I right AlfA01?


barney,

Great assumption here and spot on for my most recent adjustments in planning. I haven't been keeping up with the forum as of late due to some unforseen obligations which needed a lot of my time and attention.

Yes. I want to use the individual legs of the the three phase to support my single phase elements. I'll be running three PID's and three SSR's.

I'm currently at the point of tinning stranded wires and bending solid wires to fit the various circuits of my control panel. I'm both excited and extremely nervous, so I'll probably be posting some questions for you more experienced guys.

Cheers,
Dan
Back to top
AlfA01




Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Work is slow as of now. I slipped and sprained my wrist this week, so I can't really do much at the moment.

Hope everyone else is going well with their projects!

Cheers,
Dan Mug
Back to top
HopSteady




Joined: 09 Jan 2016
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to find a topic on this. I am based in Belgium and the house is wired with 3phase 25A 230V. I have been in touch with my electrician and he has told me with the 2 x 230V/5000W/21.7A single phase elements I plan to use I will be OK, but at the very limit of my electrical system (I am planning to build a back to back brewery panel). He says he will need to check the house electro panel to ensure the 2 elements are on phase 1 and phase 2 respectively and the rest of the house is on phase 3 (kitchen, washer etc).

How I was thinking of wiring this is to employ 2 different AC inputs in the brewery controller, each coming from a separate phase, and each controlling a separate heating element. This way I can stick to standard AC plugs, and if I were to move house where I would not have access to 2 dedicated 25A circuits, I would still be able to use one and brew (I just won't be able to run the second element). I would wire the panel circuitry, PIDs, etc + element 1 to the AC in 1, and element 2 to AC in 2. I guess I would need to build in 2 x volt meters and 2 x amp meters, or is anyone aware of multiphase capable meters?

Appreciate if someone more knowledgeable to "approve" of this plan Smile
Back to top
barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder about one thing - you say you want to use "standard AC-plugs". The most common 1-phase plug in Europe is the "Schuko" but these are rated for only 16A and the "blue" more robust ones used for example with caravans are also rated for 16A.

I suppose you want to use your "american" elements but I think the best way is to explore the possibilities with 3-phase and use a 3-phase outlet on the wall (maybe your electrician have to install one on separate 16A-circuit breakers).

You will then have a 3-phase inlet on your panel but most of the panel is wired for 230V and most control functions use one of the phases. All of the three phases can then be wired to a 3-phase SSR followed by a 3-phase outlet for a 3-phase element.

A 3-phase element that runs on 230V and 16A/phase can give you 11 000W here.

But with 3-phase you also have access to 400V if you delta-wire an element. Here you can have 19 200W with the same panel (not with the element mentioned above - that will use 28A /phase with that wiring) .

You can also have some 1-phase outlets for pumps etc.

You can compare this setup with the american ones that use 120V for some functions and 240V for the elements.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Building Your Brewery All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group