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AlfA01
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece
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 Link Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:00 pm Post subject: 3-Phase EU Help |
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Looking for some of the guys that live in Europe, or have experience with 3-phase, to lend help with some wiring details.
Alright, I've decided on going with the 3-phase version to run two 5500W elements simultaneously during the boil on a +/- 200l BIAC system.
In order to wire my controller I have five wires: Ground (Earth), 3-Hot wires and 1-Neutral. On my power in relay I have three terminals to connect either 2-hot and 1-neutral or 3-hot and route the neutral to the bus. My apologies, I'm from the US originally, so I'm an EU 'transplant' and haven't dealt with the 3-phase wiring at all.
I'll attach some photos of my relay as soon as the Windows 10 upgrade is done on my laptop. I downloaded the photos on it yesterday and now can't access them at the moment. I have four relays in total: one for each element (two boil elements and one 4500W element for the RIMS) and a power in relay.
My plan is to overly simplify the system. Meaning that besides PID's, switches and lights, there won't be a whole lot to my system. Looking for the very basic, as the system may become automated at some point and I want to avoid having too many gadgets to deal with when automating.
All for now. Any thoughts or help on this is greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Dan AlfA01
I also have a build thread on HBT: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=528824
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11120
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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AlfA01
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece
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| Link Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Dan, I've split your post off from the "Adapting for 220-240V countries" thread as your 3-phase setup is different enough to deserve its own thread. Good luck!
Kal |
Cheers Kal!
I wasn't too sure where to begin, but I had seen quite a few guys in the 220/240V thread that seemed to have a better knowledge of EU electrical systems than I, so I thought it best to throw the info out there and see if I could get some help.
I'll start posting my progress and questions over here and hopefully get some of the more knowledgeable guys to chime in.
Cheers,
Dan
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AlfA01
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece
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| Link Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Here are some pics to get started with the new thread. The box construction is basically complete, but the wiring is just beginning.
I have to cut the box and mount a fan for cooling at some point, but for now I'm pressing toward getting the more functional and critical components wired in.
| Description: |
| Cover view with switches and lights installed. Sort of still in the 'mock up' phase here until I've decided where to locate everything and which features I will use. |
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290.08 KB |
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27348 Time(s) |
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Last edited by AlfA01 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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shmootsie
Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23
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| Link Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I am an electrician by trade and i live in Europe. Looking at your first post if you are going for two elements than it will be a 2-phase setup. To go for the 3-phase you need to have one element on each phase. I am glad to help you out all I can but the pictures have not uploaded so if you try again I will look at them and help as much as I can.
Shmootsie
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tae
Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36
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| Link Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I'll be following. I also live in Europe. Also what receptacles are you planning on using at the bottom of the panel. I doubt the US versions will be legal here in Europe, (At least not Denmark)
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shmootsie
Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23
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| Link Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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There are options for 3-phase quick connects that go up to 63amps. I will send some more info later on. Have to ask, where in Europe are you gonna build this. This info is helpful since it is easier to advice what options you have.
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tae
Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36
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| Link Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen some 63 Amp and 30 Amp outlet for the heat elements.Unfortunately they are mountableon the outside of the casing unlike the US ones. I Live in Denmark.
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shmootsie
Joined: 01 Sep 2014
Posts: 23
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| Link Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the late reply. I was in Russia for a business trip and just got back. The 3-phase connectors used here in Europe are all mounted outside. You can of course order some from the US but if you have a malfunction and it burns then you will have problems with the insurance company. That said if you are willing to take the risk you can use the ones from US.
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AlfA01
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece
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| Link Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| shmootsie wrote: | I am an electrician by trade and i live in Europe. Looking at your first post if you are going for two elements than it will be a 2-phase setup. To go for the 3-phase you need to have one element on each phase. I am glad to help you out all I can but the pictures have not uploaded so if you try again I will look at them and help as much as I can.
Shmootsie |
Shmootsie,
Glad to have you on board. I could definitely use your assistance and advice. I plan on running three elements--two 5500W boil elements and one RIMS element, which is 4500W. Only two of the elements will operate at any given time. The RIMS is planned to be used only during mash to hold temps or to possible make mash steps.
3-phase is available and the power plug will I use to operate the panel and elements is wired as such, so if I do not use the third phase I would possibly have to shunt it for safety reasons!????!!! Is that correct? Or, I could use a separate phase to each element, all ran to/from separate buses within the panel.
I'm building and operating this brew system in Greece.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Cheers,
Dan
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AlfA01
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece
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| Link Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| tae wrote: | | I have seen some 63 Amp and 30 Amp outlet for the heat elements.Unfortunately they are mountableon the outside of the casing unlike the US ones. I Live in Denmark. |
I'm using the exterior mounting receptacles. Don't quote me on the amps, but I have the main power in plug (red, 5 pins), the element receptacles (blue, 3 pins) and the accessories (pump) are (blue and black, 3 pin EU standard 220V). All are covered receptacles with rubber seals to prevent moisture--these are probably also usable outdoors, unlike many of the US style plugs I've seen.
We have these style of plugs to run the DJ equipment at the bar. They are used outside and near the sea with no problems. I'm more than happy to use them on my build, even if they are a little cumbersome and ugly.
Welcome to the build. I'll post up some photos of the plug when I get a chance. I'm using really slow 3G internet so uploading is a little difficult. I'm also firing up the old DLSR camera to get some good pics....the mobile phone just ain't cutting it for quality photos in all light settings.
Cheers,
Dan
Last edited by AlfA01 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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AlfA01
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece
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| Link Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| shmootsie wrote: | | Sorry for the late reply. I was in Russia for a business trip and just got back. The 3-phase connectors used here in Europe are all mounted outside. You can of course order some from the US but if you have a malfunction and it burns then you will have problems with the insurance company. That said if you are willing to take the risk you can use the ones from US. |
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tae
Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36
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| Link Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I am building a 50A panel in Europe and have also come to the point where I am trying to figure out how to connect the 3 phases with my panel? How is this done? Do I need any additional relays?
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AlfA01
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece
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| Link Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| tae wrote: | | I am building a 50A panel in Europe and have also come to the point where I am trying to figure out how to connect the 3 phases with my panel? How is this done? Do I need any additional relays? |
I'm planning to use an input relay on my build similar to the one found on this site and in the book. I will have three elements, each with their own relay, so I'll have a total of four relays in the build. The input relay will of course have the capabilities to handle the 3-phase (50A) power input.
Cheers,
Dan
| Description: |
| Input relay that I plan to use in my control panel. |
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27175 Time(s) |
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tae
Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36
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| Link Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| AlfA01 wrote: | | tae wrote: | | I am building a 50A panel in Europe and have also come to the point where I am trying to figure out how to connect the 3 phases with my panel? How is this done? Do I need any additional relays? |
I'm planning to use an input relay on my build similar to the one found on this site and in the book. I will have three elements, each with their own relay, so I'll have a total of four relays in the build. The input relay will of course have the capabilities to handle the 3-phase (50A) power input.
Cheers,
Dan |
Thanks for reply Dan.
I plan on using 4 elements (4 x 5500W) in my setup. Do i need a relay able to handle 4 phases then ?
Regards
Karsten
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11120
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| tae wrote: | | I plan on using 4 elements (4 x 5500W) in my setup. Do i need a relay able to handle 4 phases then ? |
No.
If you're feeding the panel with 3-phase, you would use 3-phase relays (or contactors) to switch the power on/off to 3-phase heating elements.
3-phase heating elements have 6 connection points as they are simply 3 regular elements stuck together.
I don't know exactly what you're doing or what power you have or what these heating elements are that you are using (single phase? 3 phase?) so I can't comment further.
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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tae
Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36
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| Link Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | tae wrote: | | I plan on using 4 elements (4 x 5500W) in my setup. Do i need a relay able to handle 4 phases then ? |
No.
If you're feeding the panel with 3-phase, you would use 3-phase relays (or contactors) to switch the power on/off to 3-phase heating elements.
3-phase heating elements have 6 connection points as they are simply 3 regular elements stuck together.
I don't know exactly what you're doing or what power you have or what these heating elements are that you are using (single phase? 3 phase?) so I can't comment further.
Kal |
Hi Kal. Thanks for the reply.
The way I initially approached this, was to start my brewery with the panel. I am basically building the panel you describe in your 240V 50A panel so I am able to run 2 x 5500 Watt at the same time. This means i have to go through adapting for 30+ gallons AND since I live in Europ merging with the adapting for 240V countries. I already bought the relays you are referring to in you build. In your panel there are only 2 phases going into the panel. I was late to discover that you must have stronger phases overseas since I am only able to pull 16 Amp per phase here in Denmark, which obviously isn't enough. If 2 phases isn't enough, i need to utilize some more phases. I haven't got the installation in my house yet but will get an electrician to do it when I am done buying everything (30 gallon Blichmann, etc). This means i still haven't bought my heat elements yet either. Initially I was thinking your camco 5500 Ripple, but I am now unsure if they can be used with the electrical code we have here in DK? I want to be able to supply my panel with 50A, but with only 16 Amp per phase this is causing me some issues. I am no electrician so it takes me some time to figure things out. Inputs are much appreciated.
Kind regards
Karsten
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11120
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| tae wrote: | | In your panel there are only 2 phases going into the panel. |
Technically they are not 'phases' so be careful with this wording as it will confuse others if you talk about single phase vs 3 phase. The control panel designs on this site are all single phase, not 2-phase.
2-phase was never adopted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power
Single phase or 3-phase are what's used in industry.
Single phase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-phase_electric_power
3-phase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power
| Quote: | | I was late to discover that you must have stronger phases overseas since I am only able to pull 16 Amp per phase here in Denmark, which obviously isn't enough. |
It may be. If that's 16A per phase, a 3-phase heating element would be able to consume 3 x 16 = 48A which would give you quite a lot of power.
| Quote: | | Initially I was thinking your camco 5500 Ripple, but I am now unsure if they can be used with the electrical code we have here in DK? |
That's not a question I can answer for you.
| Quote: | | I want to be able to supply my panel with 50A, but with only 16 Amp per phase this is causing me some issues. I am no electrician so it takes me some time to figure things out. |
I think you may be mixing up single phase vs 3-phase.
Do you have 3-phase power available to you or is your power single phase? Phase isn't the number of wires you have coming in.
In North America 3-phase is typically only available in some commercial locations as it's a less expensive way to run large loads (big motors, for example). You'll rarely see it homes or anywhere outside a factory or commercial establishments. Things may be different in other parts of the world....
Kal
_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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tae
Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36
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| Link Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | tae wrote: | | In your panel there are only 2 phases going into the panel. |
Technically they are not 'phases' so be careful with this wording as it will confuse others if you talk about single phase vs 3 phase. The control panel designs on this site are all single phase, not 2-phase. |
I am not quite sure I follow? I recently rebuilt my house including all the electricity (helped the electrician). My new distribution panel has 2 "groups" (directly translated from Danish) each able to manage up to 10A (fuse limit to protect wiring). This group provides power to all my lights and most power outlets. I also have 2 other "groups" with 16A fuses. One "group" delivering power to my hot tub, and the other to my kitchen stove and oven. The cables to my hot tub, sove etc, respectively has 5 wires in it going to them. 1 ground, 1 neutral and 3 "phases" (at least what we call them i Denmark). Each of these "phases" is connected to a 16A fuse in my power distribution panel. If my understanding is correct, the way the panel is designed, I have to connect 2 of these "phases" into my Power In relay? (the two 6 AWG wires, black "Y" and red "X" going from the power In to the relay)
If I do this I am only supplying 2 X 16 A = 32 A to my panel?
Does this make any sense or am I way off?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11120
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not familiar with Danish wiring, but in North America we have 4 wires: 2 HOTs (out of phase from each other), 1 NEUTRAL, and 1 GROUND. Even though there are two HOTs, we don't call this "2-phase" electric power. Doing so would be incorrect and would only confuse someone trying to understand what's been done. That's really all I was trying to point out - that the number of groups or wires may not actually be phases.
You may indeed actually have 3-phase wiring in your location - I really don't know.
Kal
_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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