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58% brew efficiency ermmmm?

 
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morrillt




Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 56



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:17 am    Post subject: 58% brew efficiency ermmmm? Reply with quote


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My last couple brews have been at 55-60%

I am fairly certain the crush is good, will upload photos.

the ph is 5.1

Contnuous sparge, over 30mins.....

recirculating during mash....

Mashing for an hour at 148-150, had a 5minute spike to 170 by accident and overcorrrected it to 130 which took 10 mins to bring back, is this the issue?

I am doing the same recipe again tomorrow, and should elimante the temp sweeps, but what else should i be looking at?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sparge for 60-90 minutes instead of 30.

What is your mill gap? Set it fairly loose, around .045" - 0.50". If too tight, flow won't be good.

What kettles and false bottom are you using? If poorly designed, it may cause channeling.

If mash templ's reasonable it won't affect your mash efficiency - it'll only affect how fermentable the sugar is. ie: mashing at 148F will give you the same OG gravity beer as mashing at 160F, it's just that the 160F mash won't ferment down as far. In your case going to 170 may have denatured the enzymes after which the damage is done - you can't go back down to correct. This is why mash temp always rises (never falls). Now that said, I'm trying to wrap my head around how such a large swing (148 -> 170 -> 130) would affect the efficiency as that's a huge swing. How are you maintaining or holding temp?


Kal

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Gameface




Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Posts: 120
Location: West Jordan, UT


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also be interested in how your mash "spiked" to 170. It would require some degree of effort for me to go to 170 in my mash. Once there it would take a considerable amount of time to overcorrect to 130.

Where are your temp probes?

What were your PIDs set to?

How did you reduce temp in your mash by 40f in less than a couple hours?...especially since your HLT must have been hot since it spiked your mash temp to 170f?
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morrillt




Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 56



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am now a little hazy on exactly whap happened, but basically i have someone i am trainging and it had some first day shennanigans around not understanding the equipment, I went in at initial mashin and saw that the temp was 160 - 165, and dropped it fast by adding cold water on top...

the issue is that cold water pooled on top, and when i stirred it, the temp probe dropped super fast to 130, and so i brought it back up to 149 via herms....

I am using a false bottom i made myself based on jaybird designs....

Ok I also did another brew back to back with same grain profile and got the exact same results without the temperature swings.... so i dont think the temp swing briefly hitting 165 for 2mins hurt it.

Regarding sparging:
I have done all kinds of varieties, yday what i did was just did a 1.6 grist / water, and then just drained it out full port and drained 20 gallons. I then just dumped in some 170 water for the extra 5 gallons, and was able to extract 1.3 gravity wort from the second runnings and 1.4 from first, for again a total efficienct of 58% which sucked, again.

I am skeptical but willing to do whatever you guys think regarding sparging, i am curious though how much sparge rates will effect efficiency percentages... i will do the slow continuous sparge for todays, and see what happens..... I am also trying to do 2 brews a day, and taking 1.5 hours to sparge isnot worth it to me for a slight advantage, I will do it and see if it makes a substantial diff, sparging as we speak Smile
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrillt wrote:
I am using a false bottom i made myself based on jaybird designs....

Got a picture of it installed? Looking to see what sort of gap you have along the wall. You may have side wall shunting which will lower efficiency.

Quote:
I have done all kinds of varieties, yday what i did was just did a 1.6 grist / water, and then just drained it out full port and drained 20 gallons. I then just dumped in some 170 water for the extra 5 gallons, and was able to extract 1.3 gravity wort from the second runnings and 1.4 from first, for again a total efficienct of 58% which sucked, again.

That's batch sparging. Efficiency will lower than fly sparging, but 58% is pretty low.

Quote:
I am skeptical but willing to do whatever you guys think regarding sparging, i am curious though how much sparge rates will effect efficiency percentages...

When fly sparging it's important.

What is your mill gap? Set it fairly loose, around .045" - 0.50". If too tight, flow won't be good.

Kal

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Gameface




Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Posts: 120
Location: West Jordan, UT


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrillt wrote:
I am now a little hazy on exactly whap happened, but basically i have someone i am trainging and it had some first day shennanigans around not understanding the equipment, I went in at initial mashin and saw that the temp was 160 - 165, and dropped it fast by adding cold water on top...

the issue is that cold water pooled on top, and when i stirred it, the temp probe dropped super fast to 130, and so i brought it back up to 149 via herms....

I am using a false bottom i made myself based on jaybird designs....

Ok I also did another brew back to back with same grain profile and got the exact same results without the temperature swings.... so i dont think the temp swing briefly hitting 165 for 2mins hurt it.

Regarding sparging:
I have done all kinds of varieties, yday what i did was just did a 1.6 grist / water, and then just drained it out full port and drained 20 gallons. I then just dumped in some 170 water for the extra 5 gallons, and was able to extract 1.3 gravity wort from the second runnings and 1.4 from first, for again a total efficienct of 58% which sucked, again.

I am skeptical but willing to do whatever you guys think regarding sparging, i am curious though how much sparge rates will effect efficiency percentages... i will do the slow continuous sparge for todays, and see what happens..... I am also trying to do 2 brews a day, and taking 1.5 hours to sparge isnot worth it to me for a slight advantage, I will do it and see if it makes a substantial diff, sparging as we speak Smile


I'd be interested to see a pic of the false bottom as well.

With batch sparging side wall shunting and speed of draining aren't a big deal but you will give up a little in efficiency.

Have you measured you water's pH? Are you just beginning with mashing?

While a loose crush (0.045-0.050" as Kal mentions) is important to allow for good flow of water through the grain bed during mash recirculation. But that doesn't mean bigger is better. You really want to go as small as possible until it causes flow issues.

With the larger crush, when fly sparging, it does help to go slower. But in my experience this is a couple points gained by going extra extra slow vs just going slow (90 min = extra extra slow. 40 min = going sort of slow). The reason going slower helps is because there are sugars absorbed into the grain and the larger the kernel the longer it takes for them to diffuse into the liquid. Now, if you're channeling and/or sidewall shunting, that can have a major negative effect on efficiency as you're not involving most of your grain in the sparging process.

But with such low numbers I'm wondering if you're getting good conversion in the first place. Sparging doesn't matter if you didn't convert the starches to sugars during the mash. I've never used it but there is a test you can do to tell if you've gotten good conversion called an iodine test. You'd have to look up how to do it but I think you should probably give it a shot.

Oh, how long are you mashing for? I don't think you mentioned that.

As many specifics as you can give the better the advice we can offer.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pictures are usually best. Often what isn't obvious the person asking become really obvious to others with pictures.

Kal

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morrillt




Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 56



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey guys

here are some pics of my false bottom https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ved5b7r5qe8dpfd/AACCOdb1ajLWq7zDo4TTS9X7a?dl=0
* i just made the gap in from side of pot to outer diamer of bottom 1/4 inch, it was 1/16th, but it was just a pain in the ass to get it snug, and actually on bottom, so i widened the gap...



and here is a walk through of my whole setup Smile https://www.dropbox.com/s/gbznsoa81gzce0r/._2014-08-19%2012.50.44.mp4?dl=0


Some more details on my process

basically its the exact setup of kals proposed thing (i hope)

* recirculating mash through herms
* 60 minute mash
* slow continuous 60minute sparge with 170 degree HLT
* no mashout (it seems to take 2 hours for me to raise the mash temp to 170 and everything i am not totally sold on the importance of mashot, but if you guys think thats the thing i will do.


Things I am trying
* double crushing the grain finer
* changed the design of my mashtun so the recirc / drain is in the center.....


thoughts?
Todd
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a picture of the bottom installed? I'm looking to see what sort of gap you have along the wall. You may have side wall shunting which will lower efficiency if you have a gap.

Why does it take 2 hours to go to mashout? That seems odd. What size kettles and heating elements? Takes me only 15 mins or so with a 5500W heating element in the HLT and 20 gallon kettles, using a 'standard' 5% ABV grain bill.

What is your mill gap? Set it fairly loose to start, around .045" - 0.50". If too tight, flow won't be good. I wouldn't double crush the grain finer.

Kal

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morrillt




Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 56



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey kal

here are some photos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ved5b7r5qe8dpfd/AACCOdb1ajLWq7zDo4TTS9X7a?dl=0

there is a 1/4 inch gap from top and sides....

Also it feels really inefficient to heat my mash up from increasing hlt temps..... its so slow i never do it.... how long would it take you to raise 20 gallons of mash liguid from 150 to 170 for sparge outs? considering getting your coil....

I am doing 25 gallon brews, with a 55000 watt element....

Best
Todd
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrillt wrote:
Hey kal

here are some photos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ved5b7r5qe8dpfd/AACCOdb1ajLWq7zDo4TTS9X7a?dl=0

there is a 1/4 inch gap from top and sides....

None of them show the gap, but that's pretty big if in fact it is 1/4". I would suspect side wall shunting could be an issue

Quote:
Also it feels really inefficient to heat my mash up from increasing hlt temps..... its so slow i never do it.... how long would it take you to raise 20 gallons of mash liguid from 150 to 170 for sparge outs? considering getting your coil....

I am doing 25 gallon brews, with a 55000 watt element....

Take a look at this FAQ question:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/FAQ#How_long_does_it_take_to_heat_with_electricity_

Maybe you're running at 120V by mistake? That would put out 1/4 the power (1375W instead of 5500W). It's a fairly common mistake for those building their own panels.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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foomench




Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 704
Location: Longmont, CO

Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad

Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrillt wrote:

Also it feels really inefficient to heat my mash up from increasing hlt temps..... its so slow i never do it.... how long would it take you to raise 20 gallons of mash liguid from 150 to 170 for sparge outs? considering getting your coil....

I am doing 25 gallon brews, with a 55000 watt element....

If you have a 55,000 watt element, yikes! Wink That will raise 20 gallons from 150 to 170 in just over a minute, if you manage to not start a fire or trip a breaker with that draw of nearly 230 amps.

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Orangecrush




Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using the jaybird false in my Stout tanks, electric brewery system. Its fits perfectly snug and it is awesome. Probably one of the best upgrades I made tot he stout system. It handles super high flow rates to the point where I upgraded to the bigger nano brewery pumps. I run them fully wide open during recirculation and get really fast ramp times. Efficiency went way up. So I don't thinks it's the jaybird but more likely the gap around the edges.
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morrillt




Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 56



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am pretty sure that its at 5500 watts, the water heats up fine and fast. the issue is when i want to increase mash temp from 150 to 170 via herms the recirculating herms thing takes forever to increase the temp in mash, get me?

Also really you think a 1/4 gap would decrease efficiency considerably?
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huaco




Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1506
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

with a 1/4" gap all the way around, you should be able to take some silicone tubing slit longitudinally and slide around the edges of the false bottom. This should help you eliminate the side-wall shunting.
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Gameface




Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Posts: 120
Location: West Jordan, UT


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the false bottom it looks like the ring it stands on is also perforated and it acts sort of like a domed false bottom would. The concern would still be if the majority of the liquid is running along the outer wall. I'd take the above advice and ring that outer edge with some silicone tubing.

The concept here is that you want as much of the liquid in surface to surface contact with as much of the grain as possible. When the liquid finds a path of least resistance it will move much more of the water along that path and only come into direct contact with the grain along that path. That can affect your conversion rate, but more importantly it can affect both the rinsing of sugar from the grain (a relatively fast process) and the diffusion of sugars absorbed into the grain into the water (a much slower process that benefits from length of contact time and continuously moving the sugar infused water away and introducing water with a lower concentration of sugar).

Hope that helps.
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foomench




Joined: 21 Feb 2012
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Location: Longmont, CO

Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad

Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrillt wrote:
I am pretty sure that its at 5500 watts, the water heats up fine and fast. the issue is when i want to increase mash temp from 150 to 170 via herms the recirculating herms thing takes forever to increase the temp in mash, get me?

I presumed you really had a 5500 watt element, but had to poke fun at the typo.

A 5500 watt element in a perfect world could bring 20 gallons from 150 to 170 in a little over 10 minutes. The world isn't perfect, as you have heat loss in the MT, heat loss in the tubing and pump, not necessarily perfect thermal transfer through the coil, this isn't water, ... But I would expect you should be able to raise that temperature in under 20 minutes.

Are you sure the PID is doing the right thing? I think a review of Kal's procedures for the brew day as well as configuring the HLT PID is in order. Also, you could try an experiment with just water. Put water in both the HLT and MT and get both to 150. With both pumps running (as per the brew day), switch HLT PID to manual mode and track how long it takes for the MT to get to 170. Now repeat with the PID programmed and running automatic PID mode. How long does that take? It should take a little longer since the PID is going to avoid overshoot, but it shouldn't take a lot longer.

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morrillt




Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 56



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Added a hose around the edge.... slowed down sparge.... up to 70% efficiency. I just got a feeler gauge and will try doing a .045 crush next Smile see if i can get up to 80+ Smile
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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 32
Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrillt wrote:
Added a hose around the edge.... slowed down sparge.... up to 70% efficiency. I just got a feeler gauge and will try doing a .045 crush next Smile see if i can get up to 80+ Smile


Did you ever find out any other issues? I'm having the same problems but I know it's not my false bottom. I have basically the same as yours but no gap at all around the edges.
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