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KC130FENSI
Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: Southern Maryland
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 Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah I read these before I pulled the trigger on one. My thoughts were that by putting a bleed valve on the highest point I could flood the entire cavity and completely purge it of air before turning the pump on. At that point there would be absolutely no way of it sucking air into the system and breaking syphon
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 176
Location: hudson valley, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have a picture of your setup? I assume you do a whirlpool to get most of the crap to the middle of the pot and then the filter gets all of the stuff that the whirlpool didn't take care of?
Wouldn't it work just as well if you fed the output of the kettle into the pump and then into the strainer? Otherwise, you're restricting flow to the pump, aren't you?
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KC130FENSI
Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| stickyfinger wrote: | Do you have a picture of your setup? I assume you do a whirlpool to get most of the crap to the middle of the pot and then the filter gets all of the stuff that the whirlpool didn't take care of?
Wouldn't it work just as well if you fed the output of the kettle into the pump and then into the strainer? Otherwise, you're restricting flow to the pump, aren't you? |
I don't currently have any pictures. We just recently bought a house and im working on getting the brewery up and running again. The basement had a 14x14 woodshop that im converting over to a brewhouse. I have the vent fan installed and a vent hood built, I just need to get it all mounted and put in electrical. I am hoping to be up and running by the 18th, ill take pictures then and send them to you if you would like.
I guess I could be restricting flow to the pump a little bit but the output isn't running wide open anyway so I don't think it really matters. The setup works and it works quite well so I haven't messed with it or changed it up.
Oh and I have never done a whirlpool, I just shut the element off and put the lid on the kettle open the valve and flood the strainer and chill like normal.
Mike
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, lots of responses here.
"going really slow with the hop stopper" I guess I don't know what I'm missing here. I go so slow that it takes me probably 45 min to drain 6.5gal. I don't use the pump, I just let gravity do the work. But I've tried so many combinations of running the pump first, not turning it until the end, letting gravity do all the work, etc. It is very hit or miss, with the vast majority of the time being a miss. I've read threads, posts, all the advice I could find out there on the web, and still can't get it to work right. I understand I'm going to leave some wort in the kettle, but 1gal+ is unacceptable to me.
The hop spider looks to be the easiest method, but most of my brews (I'm a hop head) have a hop schedule that consists of one bittering addition, and then 5-7 ounces of hops thrown in anywhere between 5min to post flame-out (i guess what is commonly called whirlpool additions but i don't whirlpool as of now). I don't know how much hop flavor I'll get out of a hop spider when I'm throwing in hops at 180F and letting them steep for 20 min. With the element off, there isn't much movement in the water.
So I'm trying to figure out if I should whirl pool or make a customized hop stopper that sits lower in the kettle. The big problem with the current hopstopper is that it sits too high, and get's exposed to air too soon during the draining process. I would think that if I made something that was still fully submerged in even 1/2gallon, that would be a big improvement. The problem though is that I can't find materials (yet) and I don't have much in terms of tools I think you need to make something like that.
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 176
Location: hudson valley, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| zeppman wrote: |
"going really slow with the hop stopper" I guess I don't know what I'm missing here. I go so slow that it takes me probably 45 min to drain 6.5gal. I don't use the pump, I just let gravity do the work. But I've tried so many combinations of running the pump first, not turning it until the end, letting gravity do all the work, etc. It is very hit or miss, with the vast majority of the time being a miss. I've read threads, posts, all the advice I could find out there on the web, and still can't get it to work right. I understand I'm going to leave some wort in the kettle, but 1gal+ is unacceptable to me. |
I agree. I am sure I was doing it as recommended. It took me 45 minutes to drain my kettle the last time I used the Hop Stopper, and it still left 1 gallon behind in a low-hop beer. Not having to baby-sit the Hop Stopper would make the switch to the whirlpool worth it alone even if I had to still give up a gallon of wort each time!
| zeppman wrote: |
So I'm trying to figure out if I should whirl pool or make a customized hop stopper that sits lower in the kettle. The big problem with the current hopstopper is that it sits too high, and get's exposed to air too soon during the draining process. I would think that if I made something that was still fully submerged in even 1/2gallon, that would be a big improvement. The problem though is that I can't find materials (yet) and I don't have much in terms of tools I think you need to make something like that. |
Yeah, the key to a hop strainer is to keep as much of it cover as possible for as long as possible, especially if you use a large kettle. How is your pickup tube set up in your kettle? Do you have a Blichmann? You could always try doing a whirlpool with your brew spoon, let settle for 15 minutes, and then just drain and see how it goes. I think it works best if you can get your pickup tube sucking from the direction of the kettle wall or at least tangential to the kettle wall to avoid pulling from the center of the kettle where the pile of crap is, but you could see what happens. Don't drain too fast though, as you will disturb the pile more easily I think, or at least that is what I have read. I use like 0.5 gallon per minute when I drain.
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 176
Location: hudson valley, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| KC130FENSI wrote: | | stickyfinger wrote: | Do you have a picture of your setup? I assume you do a whirlpool to get most of the crap to the middle of the pot and then the filter gets all of the stuff that the whirlpool didn't take care of?
Wouldn't it work just as well if you fed the output of the kettle into the pump and then into the strainer? Otherwise, you're restricting flow to the pump, aren't you? |
I don't currently have any pictures. We just recently bought a house and im working on getting the brewery up and running again. The basement had a 14x14 woodshop that im converting over to a brewhouse. I have the vent fan installed and a vent hood built, I just need to get it all mounted and put in electrical. I am hoping to be up and running by the 18th, ill take pictures then and send them to you if you would like.
I guess I could be restricting flow to the pump a little bit but the output isn't running wide open anyway so I don't think it really matters. The setup works and it works quite well so I haven't messed with it or changed it up.
Oh and I have never done a whirlpool, I just shut the element off and put the lid on the kettle open the valve and flood the strainer and chill like normal.
Mike |
Send some pictures when you get a chance. I'm sure someone may be interested in the future. Good luck in the new place.
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Stickyfinger -
I have a 20gal blichmann (One from 3 or 4 years ago before they changed their design), so I have the standard 90 degree bend dip tube, and the dip tube that came with the hop stopper.
I like your idea about just trying the whirlpool with a spoon before I go adding extra holes to the kettle. I was also thinking maybe I could factory installed (analog) temp probe hole on the front too, right above the valve... that way I wouldn't have to drill another hole. I don't know, thinking out loud here...
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 176
Location: hudson valley, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| zeppman wrote: | Stickyfinger -
I have a 20gal blichmann (One from 3 or 4 years ago before they changed their design), so I have the standard 90 degree bend dip tube, and the dip tube that came with the hop stopper.
I like your idea about just trying the whirlpool with a spoon before I go adding extra holes to the kettle. I was also thinking maybe I could factory installed (analog) temp probe hole on the front too, right above the valve... that way I wouldn't have to drill another hole. I don't know, thinking out loud here... |
Why don't you try doing a slow, steady whirlpool with your brew spoon the next time you brew. It won't be as good as using a pump, but it will give you an idea of what a whirlpool can do. If you like it, you know you'll like it with the pump. Also, I just did a hoppy Rye Strong Ale last Friday using the pump whirlpool, and the resulting beer is quite a hop bomb. I really like the results. I don't think the pump whirlpool is needed for hop stands, but it certainly is no worse! I'm very impressed with the results, especially the strong hop flavor.
I'm pretty sure people have used the old Blichmann thermometer hole, as it is close to the point where you can get the inlet tube covered with wort even with 6 gallon batches. Mine is around 6 inches or so up from the bottom of my 20 gallon Concord, and it works well. I just used the whirlpool kit from bargainfittings.com with a bulkhead + 90 degree elbow + compression fitting. Anyway, try it with the spoon. One caveat, as I said, is that if you use the standard Blichmann dip tube, it will be a little less ideal than if you could draw from the very edge of the kettle. Can you jury rig a piece of copper tubing or something to get a pickup closer to the kettle wall?
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Stickyfinger,
Ok, that sounds like a plan for now. I'll give it a shot. And yes, I can probably make a copper dip tube that draws form the edge of the kettle. One thing though, I thought I read somewhere that boiling wort and copper over time is not good? I can't find it now, but I thought the copper corroded or leeched something into the wort... probably wrong though.
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 176
Location: hudson valley, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| zeppman wrote: | Stickyfinger,
Ok, that sounds like a plan for now. I'll give it a shot. And yes, I can probably make a copper dip tube that draws form the edge of the kettle. One thing though, I thought I read somewhere that boiling wort and copper over time is not good? I can't find it now, but I thought the copper corroded or leeched something into the wort... probably wrong though. |
The only danger I am aware of with copper is if you see "verdigris" on it. Check out this info. from John Palmer, a metallurgist:
"Copper
Copper has the highest heat conductivity, is easy to form and was traditionally used for making the brewing kettles or “coppers.” Copper can be readily soldered, brazed and welded with the proper equipment. Soldering and brazing should be more than adequate for most brewery uses.
Copper is relatively inert to both wort and beer. With regular use, it will build up a stable oxide layer (dull copper color) that will protect it from any further interaction with the wort. Only minimal cleaning to remove surface grime, hop bits and wort protein is necessary. There is no need to clean copper shiny-bright after every use or before contact with your wort. It is better if the copper is allowed to form a dull copper finish with use.
However, you need to be aware that copper can develop a toxic blue-green oxide called verdigris. Verdigris includes several chemical compounds — cupric acetate, copper sulfate, cupric chloride, etc. — and these blue-green compounds should not be allowed to contact your beer or any other food item because they are readily soluble in weakly acidic solutions (like beer), and can lead to copper poisoning (i.e., nausea, vomiting). To clean heavy oxidation (black) and verdigris, use vinegar or oxalic acid-based cleansers like Revereware Copper and Stainless Steel cleanser.
For regular cleaning of copper and brass, unscented dish detergent or sodium percarbonate-based cleaners are preferred. Cleaning and sanitizing copper wort chillers with bleach solutions is not recommended. Oxidizers like bleach and hydrogen peroxide quickly cause copper and brass to blacken; these oxides do not protect the surface from further corrosion, and are quickly dissolved by the acidic wort. Copper and other trace metals are beneficial nutrients for yeast, but the amounts that are dissolved from non-passive oxides can be detrimental to
the batch.
Copper counterflow wort chillers should not be stored full of sanitizer or water. Any biological deposits can lead to corrosion in both water or sanitizer. Copper should be rinsed thoroughly with clean water and allowed to drain
before storage." - from http://byo.com/issues/item/1144-metallurgy-for-homebrewers
I'd say he probably knows what he is talking about.
You also want to avoid brass fittings UNLESS you leach the surface lead with a solution of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar OR use low-lead brass fittings for water supply lines and such.
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome, thanks for the info. Come to think of it, the CFC I bought (recommended by Kal) from morebeer is copper... Doh!
I'll run to the hardware store tonight and see what I can find. Thanks!
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foomench
Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 704
Location: Longmont, CO
Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad
Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Before drilling another hole in the BK, one could run a pump whirlpool with something that goes over the outside of the kettle. I've seen some commercial things for sale, and it wouldn't be very hard to rig something up either.
_________________
Brewery equipment photos (et al) here: https://picasaweb.google.com/114861423235799103704
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 176
Location: hudson valley, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| foomench wrote: | | Before drilling another hole in the BK, one could run a pump whirlpool with something that goes over the outside of the kettle. I've seen some commercial things for sale, and it wouldn't be very hard to rig something up either. |
yeah, just clamp a long piece of copper tubing to your kettle wall and put a 45 or 90 or bend in it if u want to try the pump without holes. i think kevin or someone did that on this forum to test it
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| foomench wrote: | | Before drilling another hole in the BK, one could run a pump whirlpool with something that goes over the outside of the kettle. I've seen some commercial things for sale, and it wouldn't be very hard to rig something up either. |
Also a great idea. I'm excited to try this!
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Is there a "recommended height" to have the whirlpool outlet? I know the inlet should be on the bottom and near the edge, but at what height do you want the outlet, compared to the wort level? lower, middle, upper portion of the wort?
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Tungsten
Joined: 06 Dec 2014
Posts: 318
Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| zeppman wrote: | | Is there a "recommended height" to have the whirlpool outlet? I know the inlet should be on the bottom and near the edge, but at what height do you want the outlet, compared to the wort level? lower, middle, upper portion of the wort? |
What do you mean "outlet" versus "inlet?"
(If you imagine this part in a Michael Caine voice a la The Prestige, it's more entertaining). Every [most] whirlpool setup has 3 parts. The part that drains wort out of the kettle and into a pump (Part A), the bulkhead in the kettle wall that the wort is pumped through (Point B), and the point where the pump wort is injected back into the kettle, usually through some kind of stainless steel tubing (Point C).
Point A should just simply be the point you usually drain your kettle through, so typically a diptube something connected to a ball valve at the bottom of your kettle.
Point B's ideal height doesn't really matter. You don't necessarily even have to mount anything.
Point C should be close to the bottom of the kettle. If you put it too high up, in my opinion you'll be moving the top of the wort, but not really the bottom as much, and you won't have as nice of a cone.
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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"Point C" is what I was referring to. Would you put that above or below the heating element height?
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Tungsten
Joined: 06 Dec 2014
Posts: 318
Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| zeppman wrote: | | "Point C" is what I was referring to. Would you put that above or below the heating element height? |
I'd probably go as low as I could.
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 138
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