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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011 Posts: 138
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:06 pm Post subject: hop stopper - the achilles heal of the electric brewery |
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MODERATOR UPDATE: The Hop Stopper 2.0 was introduced in May 2018 - It is completely redesigned to address many of the issues mentioned here and the issue of recirculation. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hop-stopper
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So I've had my (identical) Kal clone up and running for 3.5 years now. I love it. I've made great beer consistently over and over again, impressing friends, family, and myself... It's a joy to brew on except for one thing. The hopstopper.
(Warning, rant ahead)
I hate... and I mean really hate the hopstopper. I was so pissed after my last brew (lastnight) that I am now determined to find a better solution. The thing sucks. I didn't go back and count but I've probably brewed between 70-80 batches on my system (roughly two batches a month). I can count on one hand how many times I've felt the hopstopper performed how I wanted it to. The other times? I'm leaving 1-2 gallons of wort in the kettle. Do you know how much beer that is over 70-80 batches!!!! I've tried everything. The slow pump, rocking it, trying to scrape the hop gunk off of it and re-gain suction. Overall, I'd say it's the worst brewing purchase I've made in my 8 years of brewing. There has got to be a better way to filter the hops and other gunk out of the wort!!!! It's gotten to the point where I'm actually getting discouraged to brew because I think, "man, I'm going to have to deal with that piece of garbage again." (Ok, that's a little dramatic, but I do think about it as I'm heating up my HLT).
So what do you all do? I know there are others who are just as displeased as I am with the hopstopper (and even more people on homebrewtalk). I've thought about whirlpooling, but I would think the heating element would get in the way. I've thought about a hop spider, but I don't want to loose my hop utilization/efficiency. I love IPAs and they make up probably 80% of what I brew.
I've also thought of finding a way to design a dip tube that would bend down to the bottom of the kettle, and the follow the circumference of the kettle. It would have small slits in it and be covered by a screen. It would basically be a circle that laid on the bottom of the kettle. This way it wouldn't be exposed to air until almost all the wort was out of the kettle. I believe that to be the biggest design flaw with the hopstopper. It starts to get exposed to air when there is still 3 gallons+ in the kettle.
My system would be perfect if I could just find a solution to the hopstopper!
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Kevin59
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Fort Collins, CO
Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale
Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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IHMO buy yourself a hop spider, problem solved...
Cheers!
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Tungsten
Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Posts: 318 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've used a hop spider with good results, and I should mention I've never used the hop stopper. However, I'm a big supporter of whirlpooling. There are a couple recent threads on it, and the heating element may prevent the whirlpool cone from getting as large as you want but it shouldn't impact the effectiveness of it. Either way, if you've got a side drawing dip tube, even if you do pick up some hops and they get into the fermentor, it won't be much because you're siphoning it so slowly (in relation to the large mass of wort in there).
For another good reference on trub being in the fermentor, I highly recommend brulosophy.com for a couple good articles on it (my takeaway from it was that there was minimal difference between break/hops in the fermentor and wort only going into the fermentor). The point it, even if some gets in there, it won't harm anything.
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011 Posts: 138
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Kevin, do you use one in your setup? Did you try the hop stopper (or free floating hops in general) before the hop spider? Can you compare the two in terms of hop utilization?
Tungsten, I looked briefly but could you share a link? Do you whirlpool? I did see that article about hops/trub in the fermenter and that's not what I'm worried about. I'm more concerned with gunking up/clogging my CFC and pump.
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Roadie
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 127 Location: Charleston, SC
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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This is close to an issue I'm having and just posted on. I have never used a hopstopper but after about a year of brewing adding hops via those large tea infuser balls knew there had to be a better way. We go from BK>filter>plate chiller>carboy and those large infusers allow too much hop debris out and it would clog the filter EVERY time we brewed an IPA. We got a hopspider and love it. During the boil the vigorous boiling action of the wort allows plenty of contact with the hops. We have not increased our hop amounts at all due to the hopspider and the IPAs still taste great.
The issue I have is with the whirlpool. When you turn the element off obviously the vigorous boiling of the wort ceases and the hops are at the bottom of the spider so any whirlpool hops added don't get much, if any, contact with the wort when brewing 5 gallon batches; if we brewed 10 gallons at a time it wouldn't be an issue as the wort level would be higher to allow for contact with the whirlpool hops. I tried the large tea infuser containers last brew for the whirlpool hops and although the hop trub didn't clog the filter it came close and everything really slowed down. I'm searching for a better way to add whirlpool hops to a 5 gallon batch but for everything prior to whirlpool with a hopspider you'd be golden.
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011 Posts: 138
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Roadie, have you though of pumping your wort out of the kettle, through the chiller (or not) and back into the kettle but with the hose going straight into the hop spider? Kind of "flushing" the hops in a way? This is what I've thought I may do if I go the hop spider route, in dealing with whirlpool hops, but not sure how it would work out.
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Roadie
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 127 Location: Charleston, SC
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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zeppman wrote: | Roadie, have you though of pumping your wort out of the kettle, through the chiller (or not) and back into the kettle but with the hose going straight into the hop spider? Kind of "flushing" the hops in a way? This is what I've thought I may do if I go the hop spider route, in dealing with whirlpool hops, but not sure how it would work out. |
Yes, tried that and it doesn't work. Everything gets plugged up so you can't recirculate back into the hop spider.
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zeppman
Joined: 01 Jun 2011 Posts: 138
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Roadie wrote: | zeppman wrote: | Roadie, have you though of pumping your wort out of the kettle, through the chiller (or not) and back into the kettle but with the hose going straight into the hop spider? Kind of "flushing" the hops in a way? This is what I've thought I may do if I go the hop spider route, in dealing with whirlpool hops, but not sure how it would work out. |
Yes, tried that and it doesn't work. Everything gets plugged up so you can't recirculate back into the hop spider. |
Just so I follow correctly... what get's plugged up? The hop spider or the pump/chiller?
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Roadie
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 127 Location: Charleston, SC
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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zeppman wrote: | Roadie wrote: | zeppman wrote: | Roadie, have you though of pumping your wort out of the kettle, through the chiller (or not) and back into the kettle but with the hose going straight into the hop spider? Kind of "flushing" the hops in a way? This is what I've thought I may do if I go the hop spider route, in dealing with whirlpool hops, but not sure how it would work out. |
Yes, tried that and it doesn't work. Everything gets plugged up so you can't recirculate back into the hop spider. |
Just so I follow correctly... what get's plugged up? The hop spider or the pump/chiller? |
The wort goes back into the hop spider but it doesn't leave it so the kettle starts to run dry.
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Kevin59
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Fort Collins, CO
Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale
Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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zeppman wrote: | Kevin, do you use one in your setup? Did you try the hop stopper (or free floating hops in general) before the hop spider? Can you compare the two in terms of hop utilization? |
I have always used a hop spider in my setup as I believed it would be the least likely to cause my problems down the road. As for hop utilization I have no way to measure or compare against the hops being fully "in the boil", but I feel that my results are in line with my expectations for bitterness based on my recipes. Very subjective I know, but without a lab test...
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huaco
Joined: 05 Apr 2012 Posts: 1506 Location: Burleson Texas
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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^^^^^^^^^
What Kevin said...
Love using my hop spider! I would caution you to not recirculate into the spider directly. It will clog with break proteins very quickly if you do.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11122 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: hop stopper - the achilles heal of the electric brewery |
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zeppman wrote: | I can count on one hand how many times I've felt the hopstopper performed how I wanted it to. The other times? I'm leaving 1-2 gallons of wort in the kettle. Do you know how much beer that is over 70-80 batches!!!! I've tried everything. The slow pump, rocking it, trying to scrape the hop gunk off of it and re-gain suction. |
To make it work right you REALLY have to slow it down. I meant REALLY. It takes me twice as long to do that last few gallons as compared to the rest. It doesn't take much for the Hop Stopper cavity to empty faster via pump than it can refill via gravity.
Not using a pump (just gravity draining) makes this issue go away as you can't go "too fast" that way, but that can be more difficult to use in some cases since you may need a bigger height difference to be able to go kettle -> chiller -> fermenter.
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Doubleplugga
Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Posts: 42 Location: Perth, Australia
Drinking: Store bought craft beer
Working on: Ruthless Rye clone!
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:04 am Post subject: |
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I haven't had a problem with my hop stopper yet. Just as Kal says, go nice and slow and you should have no dramas.
Maybe it's being down here in the Southern Hemisphere that makes a difference!
Maybe not but I quite like my hop stopper and I find it bloody easy to clean.
_________________ \m/ (-,-) \m/
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:53 am Post subject: |
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I recently installed a whirlpool inlet on my kettle. I've used it on only two beers. I do 6 gallon batches in a 20 gallon concord pot, and I am VERY satisfied with the whirlpool for my 1.050 ESB with 1.5 ounces of pellet hops in it. I was able to drain very clear wort while only leaving 1 quart behind in the kettle. the boil kettle element didn't seem to cause any serious problems at all.
I recently did a 1.068 Rye American Strong Ale that had 7 ounces of hops. I loved being able to do a hop stand on 6 of the 7 ounces of hops, fantastic. When I drained it down at the end, I had some super thick hop sludge going out and into my pumps which seemed to clog it up. I estimate that I lost about 3 quarts of wort to the hops and waste in the kettle on that batch, but that is quite a bit of hops in a 6 gallon batch. I don't think I'll need to add more than that for any beer I make, except maybe a double IPA. It has pretty incredible hop aroma and flavor though, so I don't really know if more hops would add that much.
Anyway, I lost about 3 quarts on the Strong Ale, but when I was using the Hop Stopper, I was losing anywhere from half gallon to a gallon on every brew, and I couldn't seem to predict which brew would clog it. That was with very low hop bills and all around 1.050 gravity. So, I think the whirlpool is superior to the Hop Stopper. It's not a panacea though.
Another idea I've wanted to try at some point is making a custom hop stopper but shape it so that it has a large surface area in contact with the wort when the wort gets down really low. That might work pretty well too.
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Kazumichan
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 177 Location: Cincinnati Ohio area
Working on: Belgium golden, Dubbel, and imperial red
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:17 am Post subject: |
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stickyfinger wrote: | Another idea I've wanted to try at some point is making a custom hop stopper but shape it so that it has a large surface area in contact with the wort when the wort gets down really low. That might work pretty well too. |
Wouldn't getting a larger diameter hop spider do the same thing? Like a 10-12" diameter one, or how ever big of one that your pot will fit.
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Kazumichan wrote: | stickyfinger wrote: | Another idea I've wanted to try at some point is making a custom hop stopper but shape it so that it has a large surface area in contact with the wort when the wort gets down really low. That might work pretty well too. |
Wouldn't getting a larger diameter hop spider do the same thing? Like a 10-12" diameter one, or how ever big of one that your pot will fit. |
I haven't really investigated how I would set up a hop spider for my setup, but my initial thoughts were:
I'd have to go from the sides of the element, as I only have an inch or two of room above the element in my kettle when doing 6 gallon batches.
Even if I go from the sides, there is a pretty small amount of wort in contact with the hops, which may or may not impact the flavor I can get from the hops.
Seems like a whirlpool would be greatly hindered by the hop spiders in the kettle unless you could lift them out, which would eliminate doing a hop stand, AND I can't really lift out a hop spider due to the location of my vent hood anyway.
The advantage of a redesigned hop stopper is that it can just rest on the bottom of the kettle until it is time to drain. very little wort is kept from the hops. You could maybe still whirlpool if you put in a separate drain port and two whirlpool ports. But, I haven't really looked into hop spiders that in depth or tried them at all, so i may be off on all of this. They're definitely not the same solution in my opinion.
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KC130FENSI
Joined: 12 Oct 2013 Posts: 9 Location: Southern Maryland
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I hate the hopstopper as well. I went with the trub strainer from brewers hardware. http://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1.html I have it mounted inline vertically between the boil kettle and the pump. It works like a champ and I have not had any issues with it at all.
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:59 am Post subject: |
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KC130FENSI wrote: | I hate the hopstopper as well. I went with the trub strainer from brewers hardware. http://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1.html I have it mounted inline vertically between the boil kettle and the pump. It works like a champ and I have not had any issues with it at all. |
I've seen some people use that with mixed results. The test seemed pretty stupid to me on the website:
http://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1-Testing.html
They showed the test with only hops, unless I missed something. The problem really comes in when you mix hops with break material.
How many ounces of hops have you strained with it? 6 or 12 gallon batch? Were you filtering hot break and hops only or cold break too? Were you drawing off of the side like in a whirlpool?
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KC130FENSI
Joined: 12 Oct 2013 Posts: 9 Location: Southern Maryland
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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stickyfinger wrote: | KC130FENSI wrote: | I hate the hopstopper as well. I went with the trub strainer from brewers hardware. http://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1.html I have it mounted inline vertically between the boil kettle and the pump. It works like a champ and I have not had any issues with it at all. |
I've seen some people use that with mixed results. The test seemed pretty stupid to me on the website:
http://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1-Testing.html
They showed the test with only hops, unless I missed something. The problem really comes in when you mix hops with break material.
How many ounces of hops have you strained with it? 6 or 12 gallon batch? Were you filtering hot break and hops only or cold break too? Were you drawing off of the side like in a whirlpool? |
I have used it to make the Blonde ale, Electric Pale Ale and the Electric IPA, Russian imperial stout (all Kal's recipes) All 12 gallon batches.
I put a bleed on the top of it to make sure there is no air in the system, and a reducer on the outlet to bring it down to 1/2" heading to the pump.
The dip tube is just the standard Blichmann dip tube, nothing fancy.
I have the kettle valve wide open with a short section of silicon tubing and quick disconnects going to the filter, the filter body gets flooded via use of the bleed valve. A quick disconnect and silicon tubing going to the pump and then from the pump to the chiller then fermenter. I use the the ball valve on the pump outlet to regulate flow through chiller. When I get down to about 1-2 gallons of wort remaining I tip the kettle forward and slide a felling wedge under the back to make all the wort run to the dip tube. This method leaves a bunch of break and hops in the kettle and when im done and open the strainer there is a thick cake of hops and break material all around the assembly
Other than the trub strainer my system is built completely per Kal's specs, and I have had ZERO issues since I went over to the strainer.
Mike
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stickyfinger
Joined: 04 May 2014 Posts: 176 Location: hudson valley, NY
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