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Fermentation Chamber Control

 
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject: Fermentation Chamber Control Reply with quote


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Edit: Link to finished cabinet build - http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=320736#320736
Link to Brewery Build: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28523

As overly ambitious as I tend to be, I'm considering building (Edit: completed project link above) several identically sized temperature controlled fermentation chambers for various purposes in my brewery build. The plan is to build each box to be about 24"w X 24"D X 70" tall out of 2x2 lumber and high density foam. I figure these dimensions will give me the flexibility to place two 7 gallon conical fermenters (one on top of the other), AND/ OR up to one 27 gallon conical with volume extension (60 gallon total) in two of the chambers. I also want one for holding dry grain, one for cellaring my beer collection, and one for a wine cellar fridge. Each chamber will be able to be set at its own temperature. I go back and forth on making a single cabinet with individual chambers or making them individually (modular) to make them easier to work on, or to remove from the room or house individually later.

I am aware of the abundance of plans for converting a fridge or freezer into fermentation chambers using Ranco's or similar temp controls. However, due to size constraints and, honestly, the aesthetics of having 5 or 6 different sizes/ makes/ models/ conditions of various CraigsList purchases, and electrical drain and fridge noise - I have been looking into building a Glycol chilling system. This seems to be much more economical and aesthetically pleasing.

My current thought is to install the same PID Kal uses on the control panel in each chamber (especially if I make them modular), as opposed to one control panel to rule them all. I found instructions on how to wire the PID to run both cooling and heating controls. The cooling control will go to a solenoid switch on the glycol line which will allow glycol to flow into a transmission cooler inside the chamber with a fan on it. The heating control will go to a light in a can.


1.) Is there any reason to go with a 12v solenoid vs a 24v solenoid? With the fluid pressure against the valve, will a 12v have more difficulty opening than a 24v? I've ruled out 120v solenoids due to heat produced, noise and power demand.

2.) Is it possible with the PID to also run a 12v electronics fan continuously? I'd like to keep the air in the chamber moving.

3.) I'm not an engineer and have no wiring experience. Any suggestions on how to go about this, or a wiring diagram are most welcome from anyone with the time to help.


I've attached a rough sketch of the project. Other general thoughts/ questions:

I'm planning on using a 1/2 hp sump pump in a container of glycol in the chest freezer. The glycol "out" will split to the fermentation chambers and to a kegerator (also self-built) in the room/ and a tap tower that I'm running upstairs to the main floor, up the wall.

- Does anyone have experience running a submerged sump pump continuously in sub-freezing temperature?
- I'm planning on using 1/2" pvc with foam rubber insulation along the glycol lines, and tape wrapped around the foam. Any idea if I will experience condensation problems?
- Will there be condensation problems inside the fermentation chambers?
- Any other thoughts or concerns?



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Last edited by McGruber on Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:54 pm; edited 3 times in total
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've progressed (slowly) with this project, and I'll have more photos soon. I'm hoping to work on this piece-meal and be done in about a month. The cabinets are mostly complete, needing just a little more interior finish work, installation of the transmission cooler/fans, faux stainless veneer, and doors. I have four identical cabinets, and the plan is to frame in glass on the fermentation cabinets and wine fridge doors, and do a solid door on the beer cellaring fridge to keep out light.


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Transmission cooler and electronics fans
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Two of the four cabinets
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the control panel for the cabinet. I've only built one so far, and I'm looking for feedback from those of you that have thought about doing this, or have done fermentation control panel builds. Want to see what you think about it before I order three more of everything. Not sure what I'm missing, or if anyone with more experience can help save me some headaches.

I've seen some of you have done a single panel that runs X number of fermenters. My thought was to do four identical stand-alone cabinets that can be modified to be for cellaring, conditioning or fermentation, and to be able to add more cabinets or move them without having to change the one large panel.

It all runs off 24v which I was thinking would help reduce energy cost over the long run. The panel is pretty basic. The PID senses fermentation vessel temp, and calls for the glycol solenoid to open, or for the 24v pad heater to kick on. The silver button is a green backlit power button.

The largest component inside is a 110v to 24v switching power supply. The interior wiring isn't complete in the picture - I ran a test with everything but the actual glycol hooked up, and it seemed to work appropriately. Need to drill a few holes in the box and cabinet for wiring the thermocouple, fan and light.

I know that I'll incur the cost of three more project boxes with my current plan. Anyone have a suggestion on doing the power more efficiently, or have any other suggestions?



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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only thing I'd mention is be careful about the heat buildup in the box. That switch mode power supply has lots of holes for venting but then it appears you're putting it inside a sealed box. No idea how hot it'll get as I don't know what the power draw will be.

As to whether it'll "work" (you had PM'ed me separately), that'll depend on heat in vs heat out. I'm not sure how this can be calculated but whatever method you're using for chilling will be extracting heat at a certain rate/BTU and the rest of the system will be putting heat in at a certain rate/BTU. The max rate of heat extraction has to be bigger for this to work. So this depends on how cold you want to ferment, heat getting into the pipes along the system, and other factors. Calculating this is probably not obvious.

Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bodhi




Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 10
Location: Vancouver, BC


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that everything looks great so far. I'm just curious as to why you chose a pid over something like the stc1000+. With the + you can program in your steps so you can set it and forget it. I think you can have 6 profiles with 9 steps each or something like that.

Otherwise it looks great. Good work!
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Only thing I'd mention is be careful about the heat buildup in the box. That switch mode power supply has lots of holes for venting but then it appears you're putting it inside a sealed box. No idea how hot it'll get as I don't know what the power draw will be.

I figure max power draw will be a mere 1.7 amps, and you're right, I'm not sure yet how much heat it will put off. I could always drill some vent holes in the sides and the top of the control box for ventilation.

I considered mounting the switch mode supply inside the chamber itself. I don't expect any splashing inside the chamber as the fermenter is liquid tight and I will be cleaning fermenters outside of the chamber, but I was still concerned about combining liquid and electricity inside the box. That would help keep it the cool though, as most likely it will really only call for cooling.

I also thought about mounting it to the back of the chamber, but wasn't sure if mounting it unprotected to wood between the cabinet and wall was a good idea either. Not sure what industry standard is for that component. I'm all ears.

kal wrote:
The max rate of heat extraction has to be bigger for this to work. So this depends on how cold you want to ferment, heat getting into the pipes along the system, and other factors. Calculating this is probably not obvious.

No it's not. I found some friction loss calculators though Thumbs Up .

This is going to be a trial and error kind of thing. I'm simplifying here - more pictures to follow - but I'm planning on filling a chest freezer with glycol solution and pumping it a short distance through insulated piping to the cabinets. I think with how well insulated the cabinets are, the large mass of glycol solution at below-freezing temperature, and that fact that I'm mostly controlling fermentation temps for ales in a room that is almost always 68'F that I should be well within the thermal limits of the system. (Although I admit that's a guess). I'm more worried about excessive pressure on the valves and wiring it right, than if I'm going to be able to cool the beer down to fermentation or cellar temp.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bodhi wrote:
Why'd you chose a pid over something like the stc1000+. With the + you can program in your steps so you can set it and forget it. Good work!

I had never seen that before and I like that it can be programmed. I'm not sure it's going to work with my 24v system the way I envisioned it though. Plus I watched the video and all the computer programming lingo is way over my head. Also, I have Mac's not PC's (it wasn't clear if that was necessary - but I'm thinking it is).

I saw somewhere that 110v solenoids are loud when they open, create a fair amount of heat when they're on, and pull a lot of juice. I'll have to track that info down again, but that's what made me want to do it as 24v system - plus it worked out well for computer fans, LED lights on the panel, and the LED light strip.

As I mentioned - I'm pretty sure I can get that chamber pretty cold. I'm less sure the 24v pad heater is going to put off much heat at 0.42 amps on a 10 gallon batch of beer. It would be nice to use a light bulb or heating belt instead for creating real heat, but I'm just not sure how much heat I'll need to apply or how long it will need to be on to make a difference. I'll think on this some more. Thanks for the input.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a wiring schematic I worked on today. Everything in the system is 24v. Any glaring mistakes?


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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all wired up, and for the most part everything happens as it should. The problem I'm having is that when the controller calls for cold, the blue light comes on and is receiving 23.3v, but the solenoid does not activate. Same problem with the red light (on) and the heating pad (not on). When I hook them (solenoid or heating pad) up to the 24v source without going through the controller they work just fine. I can't figure out how the light is turning on after it has already passed through a load that is not activating. This make sense to anyone?
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p10ness




Joined: 01 Nov 2012
Posts: 49
Location: Shropshire, England UK


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
It looks as if you have the wiring going via the indicator lamps.If so the problem is trying to feed the current to of from the solenoid and heat pad via the indicator lamp. The lamps will not allow enough current to pass through for them to work.

You need to wire the sol and the pad direct, not via the lights.then wire the lights afterwards.

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

p10ness wrote:
...the problem is trying to feed the current to of from the solenoid and heat pad via the indicator lamp. The lamps will not allow enough current to pass through for them to work.

Thanks, that makes sense. The curious thing for me is that the lights are wired after the solenoid/heat pad, and a voltmeter shows them as receiving 23.4v and they do turn on. Seems to me the lights should be getting less voltage than the load because the current has already passed through the load.

Regardless, I see what you're saying. Will rewire and get back.
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jonymac




Joined: 18 Dec 2014
Posts: 145



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How'd it turn out?
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonymac wrote:
How'd it turn out?

Still working on it. I've finished framing and sanding all the doors and am staining/ lacquering them now. Got the cabinets wrapped with SS veneer. I have the glycol line somewhat assembled and all the parts, but still need to secure it to the ceiling and attach the T's and 90's to form the recirculation loop. I won't be able to work on them much for a couple weeks, and still need to do the finish trim, drill some holes in the control panel box for ventilation and reassemble it. Wiring it as suggested fixed my solenoid/ heater problem when I tested it last. Hopefully I'll be done in a month. Will post pictures then.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the modified wiring diagram that worked. Thanks for the feedback. This diagram is for the Auber SYL-2362B DIN controller. The wine cabinet and beer storage cabinet will have the 2362B with this wiring because they're just being used to hold a constant temperature for now.

I decided to buy the SYL-2342P-24 and RTD thermocouples for the two fermentation cabinets as they can be programmed and have ramp/soak. I'll get back on this thread if the wiring is different, and post how I programmed it. I'm going to start a separate thread on the cabinet build. (See First Post on this thread)



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Victim




Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 43



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really impressive!! I have been considering what I might do to control fermentation temps using conical fermenters. This is the type of approach I want to take.

Are you able to post any more photos of your freezer/glycol setup, or provide details on equipment, etc.?
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Victim wrote:
This is really impressive!! I have been considering what I might do to control fermentation temps using conical fermenters. This is the type of approach I want to take.

Are you able to post any more photos of your freezer/glycol setup, or provide details on equipment, etc.?

Thanks, Victim. On the first post on this thread I put a link to see some of the cabinets. I was waiting until they were more complete to post more pictures because I only had one cabinet "done" at the time, still had to finish insulating and wrapping glycol lines, and I'm using different PID's with slightly different wirings for the fermenters. I finished wiring the beer "cellar" yesterday, and plan to finish the two fermentation chambers today. I'll get back soon with more pictures and details.
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