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Final Gravity Help

 
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Pugs13




Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Location: MN


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Final Gravity Help Reply with quote


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Hey guys, so the last couple brews I have made have turned out however, I am having trouble locking in my final gravity to where it should really be. It always seems to go well below. The last ale I brewed was supposed to be at 1.013 and it was about 1.009 - 1.010...I use the electric brewery and do the 168F mash out for about 10-15min. I use yeast starts as well. Can over pitching or a real rapid/heavy fermentation cause this? Do you know what else could be the problem? Thanks
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sincere01




Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 162
Location: Gresham OR


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Final Gravity Help Reply with quote

Pugs13 wrote:
Can over pitching or a real rapid/heavy fermentation cause this? Do you know what else could be the problem?


A good start on yeast could mean a lower FG. But I wouldn't change that, getting a strong start is a good thing. If the beer seems to dry for you, I would raise your mash temperature a few degrees. A higher temp mash will create a few less fermentables (maltose units) for the yeast to eat, resulting in a higher FG. But I don't think I personally would be able to notice a taste difference from 1.013 to 1.010.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you post the recipe and what you did?

Kal

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Pugs13




Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Location: MN


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Final Gravity Help Reply with quote

sincere01 wrote:
Pugs13 wrote:
Can over pitching or a real rapid/heavy fermentation cause this? Do you know what else could be the problem?


A good start on yeast could mean a lower FG. But I wouldn't change that, getting a strong start is a good thing. If the beer seems to dry for you, I would raise your mash temperature a few degrees. A higher temp mash will create a few less fermentables (maltose units) for the yeast to eat, resulting in a higher FG. But I don't think I personally would be able to notice a taste difference from 1.013 to 1.010.

I guess for me its a conspiracy thing with ABV. I want to be able to hit the marks every time. I will give your thoughts on the matter a go and see what happens. Thanks.
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sincere01




Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 162
Location: Gresham OR


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Final Gravity Help Reply with quote

Pugs13 wrote:
I guess for me its a conspiracy thing with ABV. I want to be able to hit the marks every time. I will give your thoughts on the matter a go and see what happens. Thanks.


If you brew the same batch twice, do you consistently hit the same FG? Are you predicting FG by a software program? If so, is it consistently the same points below target that you end up at?

I guess I'm just thinking that the software can't figure in all variables, but if your batches are consistently the same amount under there may be a way that you can figure that in when you plan a brew.

Do you have temperature control for your fermentation?
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crush




Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 706
Location: Telemark, Norway


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before hunting after all the things that could be causing this, you should probably double check that your hydrometer, thermometer and mash temperature probe are calibrated, since that's something that's easily fixed!
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Pugs13




Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Location: MN


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Can you post the recipe and what you did?

Kal

Sorry this has taken forever but here it is. Maybe this will revive this thread a little. Can having a thinner mash plus higher mash temp help in this area or since it is an English Bitter would you stick with a thicker mash and just adjust the mash temp? My temp probes are pretty accurate, I have tested them against other hand held digital thermometers and they are pretty much within a degree to dead on. Also, this is before I starting doing 90min. mashes.

The recipe I used was:

12Gal. Batch

13lbs. 4oz. - Maris Otter
2lbs 8oz. - Crystal 50L-60L

ABV - 3.9%

Water - 1.25qt./lbs.
Mash temp. 149F for 60min.
Mash out - 168F for 10min.-15min.
Boil - 60min.
Yeast - English Ale
Ferment Temp. - 66F-68F
Single vessel fermentation for 3-4 weeks
Kegged and force carbonated

I didn't think you needed the hop schedule but if you do let me know...
Thanks.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinner mash = more fermentable. Yours is fine. That's about the thickest I go.

Lower mash temp = more fermentable. You're definitely mashing too low if you want more body/residual sugars, especially for such as low ABV beer.

You've got 15% unfermentable grain which is good, but I'd try mashing in the 154-156F range.

Exactly which yeast is it? (brand/number). Different yeasts attenuate differently. So that can have an effect as well.

There are lots of factors involved. Long story short: There's no "one" answer to get the final gravity you want. Every beer will be different.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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sincere01




Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 162
Location: Gresham OR


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:

Higher mash temp = more fermentable. You're definitely mashing too low if you want more body/residual sugars, especially for such as low ABV beer.
Kal


Did you mean "lower mash temp=more fermentable"? The explanation suggests so, and that's how I've always understood.
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Pugs13




Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Location: MN


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sincere01 wrote:
kal wrote:

Higher mash temp = more fermentable. You're definitely mashing too low if you want more body/residual sugars, especially for such as low ABV beer.
Kal


Did you mean "lower mash temp=more fermentable"? The explanation suggests so, and that's how I've always understood.

I think he did...that is how I have been taught as well.
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Pugs13




Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Location: MN


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Exactly which yeast is it? (brand/number)


I use WLP002 English Ale Yeast.
Do you recommend a different yeast for British style ales?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops. Err, yes. I meant higher mash temp = less fermentable sugars. Corrected.

Pugs13 wrote:
kal wrote:
Exactly which yeast is it? (brand/number)


I use WLP002 English Ale Yeast.
Do you recommend a different yeast for British style ales?

No, there are lots of choices. You pick what you want for what you're trying to achieve. I've never used that one myself so I don't know how it behaves. You just need to take into consideration how it behaves with how you brew & ferment with it.

Kal

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Pugs13




Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Location: MN


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
You just need to take into consideration how it behaves with how you brew & ferment with it.

Kal

I have been brewing with it for about 2 years now. It is a good yeast strain, take off is fast and vigorous. It can be a bit tricky though if you cannot monitor fermentation temp. as it can get out of hand very quickly, I am talk'n 72F - 74F if you don't control it. It can also leave behind some heavy esters if not monitored. It flocculates and cleans out pretty nicely but have noticed it leaves a pretty heavy dose of fruity character to it as well. I actually use WLP007 Dry English Ale Yeast in my English IPA. I use WLP004 Irish Ale Yeast for my stout and red ale. Which brings me to my next question, will you be posting a recipe on the "Recipe" page for a stout or red ale? Thanks for the help.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've made one all-grain Irish red ale. It's being served on Nitro right now and is nice but I want to tweak it a bit more before I post anything. I find recipes are a dime a dozen - it would be very easy for me to post up 50 recipes pretty fast but I want them to really be tried and true recipes that I've tweaked to get to my liking and unfortunately this takes time. There's only so much beer I (and my friends) can drink. Wink

I've actually never made an all-grain stout. It's almost all I drank back in the kit/extract days so I got a bit bored with them. It's funny you should ask however as I've actually been thinking about making one over the last few days and have been pulling together ideas.

Kal

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sincere01




Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 162
Location: Gresham OR


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
There's only so much beer I (and my friends) can drink. Wink


Seriously! You would think it would be easier to get rid of beer so you can brew more but its not. Thats probably partly do to the fact that I rarely bottle cause I hate that part. I'd much rather have people come over and drink off my tap.
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Pugs13




Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Location: MN


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sincere01 wrote:
I'd much rather have people come over and drink off my tap.


That's exactly how I feel as well. I also just fill growlers for friends as those things go fast and run the kegs down pretty fast as well. I may have a "Kill the Keg" party and have like 10-15 people over and ask them to buy or donate to the price of a glass and they can drink as much as they want till the keg is empty. That way I am not charging for beer Laughing
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matt6150




Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 31



PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:08 am    Post subject: Re: Final Gravity Help Reply with quote

Pugs13 wrote:
I am having trouble locking in my final gravity to where it should really be. It always seems to go well below. The last ale I brewed was supposed to be at 1.013 and it was about 1.009 - 1.010.


Where are you getting this from? Why do you say it's "supposed" to be at 1.013?
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Kevin59




Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Fort Collins, CO

Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale

Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Final Gravity Help Reply with quote

matt6150 wrote:
Where are you getting this from? Why do you say it's "supposed" to be at 1.013?

The "supposed" to be numbers are usually shown for most recipes I believe, and the number comes from the avg attenuation for the given yeast I'm guessing (that's how Brewer's Friend does it in their app). So for example WPL001 has an average attenuation of 76.5%. White Labs publishes an attenuation range of 73% - 80%, so that's where the "average" comes from.

Given a starting gravity of 60 points (1.060), the average attenuation would drop the gravity by 60 x 0.765 = 45.9 points, leaving you with 14.1 points or 1.014 FG. Given White Labs range of attenuation you could get an FG ranging from 1.012 to 1.016. When you take into consideration all of the other factors that have been discussed above as to fermentables in the wort, fermentation temperature, etc., there's really no point in trying to predict the FG other than to give a general idea it would seem.
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matt6150




Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 31



PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Final Gravity Help Reply with quote

mrjofus1959 wrote:
there's really no point in trying to predict the FG other than to give a general idea it would seem.


This is the point I was getting at. He is worried about a .003 point difference. If he is trying to rely on a brewing software to tell him where he is going to finish he's doing it wrong. No software is going to tell you that.
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