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berzai@sbcglobal.net
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 Posts: 74 Location: Indiana
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: Making a starter |
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So I'm more the overdue to begin saving yeast from previous batches, creating a starter, etc.
If there is a thread on this specific topic please forward.
I've been brewing for about a year and a half and am sick of spending 8 bucks on smack packs. What are some rules of thumb you guys follow when saving/cultivating yeast. A few quick questions off the top of my head...
How long does yeast from a previous batch keep?
How many days in advance do you reinvigorate or start you starter?
How many times can you reuse yeast?
Can you freeze the yeast and use later?
Maybe some equipment/storage ideas. Some do's and don'ts etc. Anyways, any response would be much appreciated.
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Castermmt
Joined: 03 Jan 2011 Posts: 863 Location: Lowell, In
Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale
Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner
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KES
Joined: 13 May 2011 Posts: 472 Location: Iowa
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:53 am Post subject: |
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This is the "next" item on my 'to do/learn' list. The yeast is the most expensive ingredient. Thanks for those links, C.
_________________ “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” B. Franklin
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huaco
Joined: 05 Apr 2012 Posts: 1506 Location: Burleson Texas
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: |
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This method is what I'm going to start doing with common yeast strains. It involves making "too much starter" for your batch and pulling some clean unused yeast off prior to pitching. No need to go through all the steps of rinsing the yeast doing it this way. After all, this is essentiay what the yeast labs do. Right?
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/entries/yeast-harvesting-novel-approach.html
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wubears71
Joined: 14 Mar 2012 Posts: 278 Location: Webster Groves, MO
Drinking: Keg 1- Hefenweizen, Keg 2- Vanilla Scotch Porter, Keg 3-Munich Helles
Working on: Stinky IPA
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I really need to start harvesting my yeast, which is exactly why I purchased conical fermenters. My biggest concern is going through the effort and then not using the yeast in a timely manner. This so far has been my biggest inhibitor to giving it a try.
_________________ I am 275 lbs of chiseled half fat and half muscle.
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huaco
Joined: 05 Apr 2012 Posts: 1506 Location: Burleson Texas
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Kal.
Would this discussion fit more closely into the Yeast and Fermentation sub-forum?
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skelley
Joined: 24 Feb 2012 Posts: 210 Location: brookfield, wisconsin
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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If you save yeast or harvest it and then make a starter, how do you know if you are pitching anywhere near the right number of colonies of yeast for your given gravity? From what I understand and have read the fermentation process and appropriate condition of yeast is one of the most important factors in making good beer.
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Castermmt
Joined: 03 Jan 2011 Posts: 863 Location: Lowell, In
Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale
Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner
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brianbarley
Joined: 18 Oct 2011 Posts: 8 Location: Austin, TX
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Remember: Brewers make wort and yeast makes beer. Become a yeast whisperer and you will immediately see significant improvements in your beer. My recommendation is to read the Yeast book from the Brewing Element Series (Yeast - The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation). When finished, read it again (and again). The keys to success are (in no particular order):
1. Starters
2. Pitching rates
3. Oxygenation
4. Temperature control - love my custom BrewPi build.
5. Yeast nutrients
6. Sanitation
For example: I use a pressure cooker to can wort (from light DME). I canned 21 quart jars this past time (3 x 7). To prep for Pliny the Edler (current brew) I made a 10L starter using 2 vials of WLP001. Per the Yeast book, 2B cells with 10L of starter volume generate 6B cells (total). This is equal to 6 vials (6x1B cells), which is what Kal's recipe calls for (pitching rate). I used a 3Gal glass carboy for the starter on a custom PWM stir plate made from .22 inch acrylic (super strong). After 36 hours at 72F I turned off the stir plate, crashed the fermentation chamber down to 36F and left it until brew day. While brewing I decanted the beer using a sanitized ss racking cane, leaving just a bit of beer on top to help mix the slurry. After mixing well I transferred it into a sanitized quart canning jar (filled almost to the top) and placed some sanitized Al foil on top and put it back in the chamber. I set the chamber temp to rise to 65F. The conical fermenter was already sanitized and pressurized with CO2 (for storage). After chilling the wort with a giant plate chiller and aerating inline with a .5 micron stone (pure O2; see book on flow and duration recommendations - you want between 8 and 10ppm O2) I waited to see what my final wort temp would be via my TC thermowell (although I had a probe inline as well and regulated somewhat with my ball valve on the water pump out so knew generally where I would be temp wise). It turned out that I was just over 61, as was my yeast so I went ahead and pitched. Five hours later the yeast were already chugging. The next morning I hit it again with O2 using a ss wand with .5 micron stone (I came in at 1.083; for big beers it helps to add more O2 after one cell division, which is about 12-16 hours after pitching [at reasonable temp]). I use a custom build BrewPi controller and upload beer profiles. The Yeast book talks about starting off a few degrees below the desired fermentation temperature and then letting it rise over the course of 18 to 36 hours. I started Pliny at 66F and then 67F after 6 hours and then up to 68 for 1.5 days. Then I increased temperature further to help encourage the yeast metabolism and absorption (clean up). I've never had any off flavors since I've followed this protocol and all of my beers have been excellent. It's all about the yeast.
Other:
I tried harvesting yeast but rarely / never ended up using it within the 2 week window. After 2 weeks the vitality and viability becomes questionable (per Chris White). I know a guy that brags about using old yeast but for me, why chance it? If you want mediocre beer then I guess it's fine. For me I will gladly pay the $7 or $14 knowing that I am getting the freshest yeast possible (almost) and grow the colony as needed.
Cheers!
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You don't have to refrigerate canned wort. |
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Notice the vortex. You really only need a small dimple. |
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If you look closely on the chart you can see where I opened the door to dose with O2 and later pull a sample. |
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brianbarley
Joined: 18 Oct 2011 Posts: 8 Location: Austin, TX
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Clarification: The 2 week window for the yeast is simply liquid yeast slurry that has been stored in a refrigerator (e.g. 33 - 36F) in a sanitized container (ideally with pressure release). After 4 weeks viability is down to around 50% or less. We don't want to pitch anything under 90% viability. Of course there are longer term storage methods but then things get much more complicated.
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huaco
Joined: 05 Apr 2012 Posts: 1506 Location: Burleson Texas
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Canning wort for using in starters... Great idea! Can you further detail your process for this? Process times etc.
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brianbarley
Joined: 18 Oct 2011 Posts: 8 Location: Austin, TX
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Sure. Page 133 - 134 of the Yeast book detail how to make a starter, including making starter wort from DME. Much of the content is also located here: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php.
Here's my process (attached). I'm thinking of mixing everything in the kettle next time and then filling the jars one at a time (water, DME and nutrient all combined). I've got a return on my BK for CIP so I can just pump it onto itself and mix it really well (whirlpool with the element etc. in the way). Filling each jar, one at a time, is a PIA, as the DME starts to cake up, etc. Two pressure cookers is the way to go, so buy one and get your friend to do the same. Have a canning party. You'll be glad you did! Oh, and even though half gallon canning jars are available you don't want to go any larger than the quarts. Note that the Presto 23 quart pressure canner can hold 20 pint jars or 7 quart jars (do the math). I just stick with the quarts.
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huaco
Joined: 05 Apr 2012 Posts: 1506 Location: Burleson Texas
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I have made lots of starters with the 10:1 ratio, but the idea of having pre-made wort intrigues me! Thanks for adding your canning details.
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foomench
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 Posts: 704 Location: Longmont, CO
Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad
Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't brew enough to just keep yeast around for the next batch, but when I'm rolling (not yet on new setup), I'll reuse yeast in sequence.
German Pilsner->Vienna Pilsner->Bock or Double Bock
Ordinary Bitter->ESB->Porter
Of course other variations are possible, and particularly helpful when you want to brew up something big like an Imperial Stout or Belgian Quad.
_________________ Brewery equipment photos (et al) here: https://picasaweb.google.com/114861423235799103704
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Castermmt
Joined: 03 Jan 2011 Posts: 863 Location: Lowell, In
Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale
Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner
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Select22 Guest
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:43 am Post subject: |
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is it better to just freeze the yeast stocks?
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David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Posts: 139 Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
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Link Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Select,
Freezing is how the "Big Boys" do it, but it is not easy. If frozen directly the yeast cell walls would burst and die. You need to create a specific solution (Water + Glycol, I don't remember the ratios). I have just been storing my yeast in the refrigerator and make a starter before the next batch.
Check out this site for a very complete discussion on yeast storage. https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/yeast-cultivation/
_________________ David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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